Floorboard Reinforcing Iron Rivet Question

BadgerA

BadgerA

Senior Member
Looking for input on finding the right length floorboard reinforcing iron rivets. The ones that come with the irons are too short when used with new floorboards. Not enough "meat" below the board to peen over. I am guessing that this is because the new boards are thicker than the originals. Does anyone have a good source of longer rivets that will work with the new boards. I know some people use wood screws, but I would like to duplicate the originals. Any thoughts or input would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
Original floorboards were 11/16" thick. Many repops are made from "commercial plywood" which is sold as 3/4" thick, but can be anything but. One bin of 3/4 "cabinet grade" plywood of my familiarity shows on the sales placard as 29/32" and measured out closest as 27/32." The challenge of a cabinetmaker is knowing the ways to accommodate variation in supply.

I hope you're working to Neil Wilson's MOST EXCELLENT floorboard plans. He has obviously worked these drawings up using Ford's actual blueprints.

Now these he shows for the AA truck - but in reality except for specialized drilling for truck things like the dual high floor pedals, the floorboards would have been from the same basic stock. So you can take these drawings to the bank for the part of the design applied to passenger cars.

You can start at https://aafords.com/aa-body-types/floor-boards/ and drill your way in further for the boards and pattern of your particular time frame.

Joe K
 
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Thanks for the input joe. Unfortunately I don't have the woodworking tools or skills to make my own. I was hoping to find a source of longer rivets to accommodate the new commercial boards sold by the parts supplier.
 
BadgerA said:
I am thinking I will see if I can plane down a set of new boards from Snyders to 11/16.
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The ones I got from Snyders were plywood, not really plane-able.

I had no issue with the rivets I got with the new floorboards. But that was several years ago. If I remember correctly, those were tubular rivets, not solid, and I had to make a punch to set them. That's what Snyder's lists. If you call Snyder's they can probably tell you what size the rivets are.

I use Jay-Cee Sales & Rivet for my rivet supplier. Length of a solid rivet is 1.5x times the diameter of the rivet plus the combined thickness of what you are riveting together. I'm not sure if that applies to tubular rivets.
 
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Actually a friend recently did the counter sink work a round. Just doesn't look right to me as I am a stickler for authenticity.
 
Of course McMaster-Carr carries almost all known to man fasteners.

www.mcmaster.com

I'm fortunate that Portsmouth, NH has the Fastener Warehouse 145 Heritage Ave. The gentleman there has an intimate knowledge of the "arcane" in fasteners - and seems to relish a challenge.

Joe K
 
Ahh yes, I forgot about McMaster-Carr. They do have tube rivets. Any suggestions as to the diameter that I need?
 
Neil Wilson in one of the floorboard drawings I referenced above, shows a A-23127 rivet - which apparently passes through a 7/32" hole.

The A-23127 fastener is likely further described in the Model A Standard Hardware book (about $9) or possibly in the Parts Price Book.

I have both of these but not right in front of me. I'll continue the research with my morning coffee after breakfast.

Joe K
 
Riveting always depends on the overall thickness of the parts to be joined. Solid rivets are measured different for length as far as how much protrusion is acceptable. It's a fair bit more than the semi-tubular rivets. The tubular types have what is called a clinch allowance which is the protrusion of the rivet tail beyond the pieces to be joined. It varies for every different diameter of rivet. Some sources for rivets have a dimensional chart for the different rivets. This type of chart should list the clinch allowances for each rivet given it's diameter.

Ford used semi-tubular rivets for their floor boards. A person needs to look at the original drawings to get they right rivet diameter and head profile. If they are countersunk types then the rivet holes have to be countersunk on the head side of the parts to be joined. Snyder's supplies rivets for the reproduction reinforcing bars and they mention using washers if the protrusion is too much. It all depends on how thick the boards or plywood is on the project. Ford planed their boards to 11/16" but that's an in between size on plywood so that complicates the use of plywood. It's easier to plane boards than mess with plywood in that respect. I'm not sure if Snyder's rivets are truss head or countersunk (they look like truss head) but semi-tubular rivets are available from multiple sources and likely in several different head profiles.

The 3/16" size rivets generally have a clinch allowance that is just less than 1/8" at 0.120 to 0.122" so that it will get a full roll over clinch of the set rivet. If that is too much, then use a thin washer either at the tail or the head side whichever is preferred for end results. If they are too short then get longer rivets.
 
I'm having coffee now.

I checked both of the sources I named above and DON'T find A-23127.

Neil shows wood screws on his "built up" (Lindermann) boards and rivets on the plywood boards.

Neil does go on further down his page to "Sectional Drawings" and F-F shows the cleat attachment of the plywood boards (5 ply fir) and again specifies A-23127. The rivet there is specified as 3/16 (1/2 head) and the drawing appears as the fastening is not "headed' as a rivet is usually done, but rather the rivet attachment is a "cup point" much as the long rivets that hold the shift levers to their rails in the transmission are done.

A "semi-tubular" rivet?

Would be held in place and a "cone point punch" used to upset and flair the cup.

A couple of other 3/16 rivets in the Parts Price List come close to this description, particularly the 3/16 sizes described as "countersunk." (ctsk.)

Getting that length right is obviously the key - and where you started the question.

I guess the answer is "the documentation is not uniform."

Hope this helps. I need a donut for this coffee.

Joe K
 
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In the past I have used transfer punches to get tubular rivets started. Not a perfect cone shape but it works.
 
OK all. I have been doing a lot of searching and research and found a supplier of the 1/16th inch semi tubular rivets a bit longer than those provided with the new irons so all is well. My thanks to everyone who took the time to address this issue for me.

Jay Cee Sales & Rivet
Farmington, Mi.
 
The A-23127 was a specific Ford part. I'm not sure how many NOS ones there are still out there but keep in mind that they are for a specific application that has fixed thicknesses of material. The original documents seem to indicate that Ford drilled the holes a bit larger to 7/32" in order for the 3/16" rivets to fit without binding at installation. This is a common practice in aviation but the tollerances are closer. The holes are drilled only a few thousandths larger for fit using numbered wire gauge drill bits instead of the next larger fractional size bits. A person should have them tighter in the bore than that but that's the way Ford did things. This is the same way they punched holes in the chassis frames to rivet them together.
 
The A-23127 was a specific Ford part.
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Then why isn't it listed in the Parts Price List of various years (I checked the three that I have) or in Mick Isbell's "Ford Model A Standard Hardware" which is obviously made up "Of a compilation of all eleven chassis parts books Ford used throughout the Model A era" (quote from the Forward)

Mick may mean "Parts Price List?"

Vince Falter at https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/partscatalogs.htm shows 11 Model A "Parts Price Lists" of the Model A production Era. There is an additional 12th Model AA "Parts Price List" shown as well. So perhaps Mick is referring to that?

Looking at Google generally for a "Model A Chassis Parts Book" I find a 1928-1937 book, and the 1928-1947 "Green Book" named similarly. But that is all.

I mean its possible that Mick and four other contributors (Sadoski, Clayton, Hierholzer, Tahtaras) "missed" something? They are, after all, compiling on 11 (!) books.

Mick seems to have been very careful in providing "footnotes" specifying date-ranges for specific components. Neil shows the A-23127 rivet on ALL of the 30-31 plywood pattern boards. A single "Sectional Drawing" he has made reference for all these.

Or perhaps Ford made an error on the call-out of the original floorboard drawings?

I don't have the answer. Perhaps "close" is good enough? Sort of like horseshoes and hand grenades?

We certainly know from original untampered boards what they should look like.

Joe K
 
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