LopezCarguy
Senior Member
Bought a new Viton tipped float valve and it is sticking in closed position..sometimes while driving which shuts engine off like it was shot..no fuel... the double ball ones are no longer available, so now what??
Float needle sticking
- Thread starter LopezCarguy
- Start date
johnbuckley
Well-known member
out of about 25-30 Viton type that I've bought over the past couple of years I found one that occasionaly sticks close. Maybe best just to by another and chuck that bad one away.
Brian T
Well-known member
Snyders have the ball type originally called the Grose jet, they still suffer from sticking closed as they did in the 70s when we used them on SU carburetors to counter the flooding problems, ended up removing them.
The only problem I know of with the Viton tip valve is they sometimes need to be taken apart to remove small particles of brass from the machining process , this was discovered by Tom Endy.
I have a B carb , the only option is the ball valve, I would like to find a conventional needle and seat, which no one supplies, I would settle for a used part, if anyone has one?.
The only problem I know of with the Viton tip valve is they sometimes need to be taken apart to remove small particles of brass from the machining process , this was discovered by Tom Endy.
I have a B carb , the only option is the ball valve, I would like to find a conventional needle and seat, which no one supplies, I would settle for a used part, if anyone has one?.
Last edited:
johnbuckley
Well-known member
Y-Blockhead
Well-known member
MAC's lists the Gross "Jet Style" for both the Zenith and Tillotson carburetors. As does Mike's...
Brian T
Well-known member
Seth Swoboda
Well-known member
Throw away the Viton tip needle and call David at Renner's corner. They sell a carburetor kit that actually has quality parts and the jets are flow tested as well. It is the only carburetor kit I have ever bought that was of good quality.
Mitch//pa
BANNED
actually renners sells the vitons but does not include them with his kits to keep the price down.
i pay extra for it and tell him to keep the chepo one
MikeK
Well-known member
Viton is a bag of worms!
Unfortunately Viton comes in 8 grade categories, with multiple formulations in each. Only two, grades "F" and "GFLT" are rated for low fuel permeation (swell resistance) and use with alcohol blend fuels. It is virtually guaranteed that a float pin labeled "Viton" does not have actual Viton, it's a trademark of Dupont. What you may get is a knockoff HFP dipolymer that's OK in non-oxygenated gas. In E10 they get a bit gummy. Given the very low gravity fuel pressure they occasionally stick closed. With a pump they're usually OK.
A true and proper modern gas Viton valve would have type F (a terpolymer) or one of the specialty blends resistant to oxygenated (E10, etc.) fuels. I really believe those people with A's that have gone years with a Viton tip valve 'got a good one', the proper grade. It's a crap shoot what you'll get in different batches from the same supplier without an expensive documentation paper trail. If it is an OEM needle from a current (alcohol blend fuel era) carburetor manufacturer the right stuff is used. ANY other aftermarket supplied 'Viton' needle without a source and type materials paper-trail is a crap-shoot.
After having Grose-jet valves get their balls in a knot and stick open, and Viton valves stick closed I really prefer the original steel pin valves. They are easy to service, and when clean, polished and seated are drip tight. If you think about it, those Grose-jet valves are just another version of a steel against brass seat valve.
Unfortunately Viton comes in 8 grade categories, with multiple formulations in each. Only two, grades "F" and "GFLT" are rated for low fuel permeation (swell resistance) and use with alcohol blend fuels. It is virtually guaranteed that a float pin labeled "Viton" does not have actual Viton, it's a trademark of Dupont. What you may get is a knockoff HFP dipolymer that's OK in non-oxygenated gas. In E10 they get a bit gummy. Given the very low gravity fuel pressure they occasionally stick closed. With a pump they're usually OK.
A true and proper modern gas Viton valve would have type F (a terpolymer) or one of the specialty blends resistant to oxygenated (E10, etc.) fuels. I really believe those people with A's that have gone years with a Viton tip valve 'got a good one', the proper grade. It's a crap shoot what you'll get in different batches from the same supplier without an expensive documentation paper trail. If it is an OEM needle from a current (alcohol blend fuel era) carburetor manufacturer the right stuff is used. ANY other aftermarket supplied 'Viton' needle without a source and type materials paper-trail is a crap-shoot.
After having Grose-jet valves get their balls in a knot and stick open, and Viton valves stick closed I really prefer the original steel pin valves. They are easy to service, and when clean, polished and seated are drip tight. If you think about it, those Grose-jet valves are just another version of a steel against brass seat valve.
Seth Swoboda
Well-known member
Well in that case I have found that the "chepo" one worked better for me than the two prior viton's. Whatever you find that works go with it.
Ken/SC
Member
I run a model b carb. I tried the gross jet valve, it kept cutting off the gas, no matter what adjustments i made. I am using a old steel pin type i got out of a old model b. It will drip some when i shut the car off and my gas tank valve is good. I keep hoping someone will make a better valve for the B.
George D
Member
The steel needle and brass seat combination have been used for years in many different kinds of cars tractors small engines and what have you. Not very often do they need replacement but frequently are because a leak was detected. Most of the time it's a peice of rust or other crapp that can be easly flushed out. A trick I learned 30yrs ago from dad was clean the valve and reinstall carb base, befor installing float and pin take a small hammer and tap the steel valve once or twice with LITE blows. This will form the brass to steel needle giving you a nice non leaking carb for many years. This should be done especially with new valves. Some have been found to weep around the threads that hold them in. Using a little Teflon or other sealer on threads will prevet it.
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Just one experience and possible rare scenario:
A Model A owner first buys a new rubber tipped needle valve from a Model A parts place.
Next the Model A owner tries to adjust the float "with" the rubber tipped needle "in place", and presses down on the rubber tipped float valve with the force of an elephant and a half and deforms the rubber tip.
The rubber tip needle malfunctions, and the Model A owner sends it back to the parts place for a refund .... or to exchange it.
The innocent re-stocking clerk places it back on the shelf until the next Model a owner orders one.
Guess what happens next?
Threw mine in the garbage after seeing it was deformed with a 10X magnifier and ordered another one that worked ...... did not even try to send it back for someone else to receive it later in the mail.
A Model A owner first buys a new rubber tipped needle valve from a Model A parts place.
Next the Model A owner tries to adjust the float "with" the rubber tipped needle "in place", and presses down on the rubber tipped float valve with the force of an elephant and a half and deforms the rubber tip.
The rubber tip needle malfunctions, and the Model A owner sends it back to the parts place for a refund .... or to exchange it.
The innocent re-stocking clerk places it back on the shelf until the next Model a owner orders one.
Guess what happens next?
Threw mine in the garbage after seeing it was deformed with a 10X magnifier and ordered another one that worked ...... did not even try to send it back for someone else to receive it later in the mail.
Mitch//pa
BANNED
i would hope that a part sent back for a defect would not find its way back onto the resale shelf. if it did i would also hope it would be a rare occurence.
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
A simple vintage "FINAL" float & float "Valve" test:
Float hang-ups are mentioned often in all vintage vehicle Forums mainly because a very slightly misaligned float hinge can easily cause the float "valve" to become totally inoperable if the metal float barely touches the rough cast iron in-side of the carburetor bowl.
Even if a delicate carburetor float very slightly hangs up, float buoyancy pressure is very weak in trying to overcome said friction; hence, with a float hang-up the needle "valve" is allowed to remain "opened" and/or "closed". Many gorilla mechanics left their big hammer marks on sides of vintage carburetors trying to un-stick a carburetor float.
Never a bad idea to "first" check the unassembled alignment of the float hinge and float.
Second, assemble the carburetor.
Third, very "gently" rotate the carburetor upside down and back to listen for the inside mechanical "click" of the float moving up and down; thus allowing the float "valve" to open and close.
For the majority, i.e., at our age, if ,no "click" is heard during rotation ..... either grab your hearing aids or borrow your grandson's, wife's, or neighbor's younger ear; and if still no "click" ........... disassemble and adjust float until "click" is heard.
After 80+ years, no doubt the worse problems for Model A carburetors were created by inexperienced humans trying to improperly clean carburetor jets and trying to perform five (5) thumb micro-dexterity re-builds.
Just hope this helps someone in the future when searching for float needle sticking.
Float hang-ups are mentioned often in all vintage vehicle Forums mainly because a very slightly misaligned float hinge can easily cause the float "valve" to become totally inoperable if the metal float barely touches the rough cast iron in-side of the carburetor bowl.
Even if a delicate carburetor float very slightly hangs up, float buoyancy pressure is very weak in trying to overcome said friction; hence, with a float hang-up the needle "valve" is allowed to remain "opened" and/or "closed". Many gorilla mechanics left their big hammer marks on sides of vintage carburetors trying to un-stick a carburetor float.
Never a bad idea to "first" check the unassembled alignment of the float hinge and float.
Second, assemble the carburetor.
Third, very "gently" rotate the carburetor upside down and back to listen for the inside mechanical "click" of the float moving up and down; thus allowing the float "valve" to open and close.
For the majority, i.e., at our age, if ,no "click" is heard during rotation ..... either grab your hearing aids or borrow your grandson's, wife's, or neighbor's younger ear; and if still no "click" ........... disassemble and adjust float until "click" is heard.
After 80+ years, no doubt the worse problems for Model A carburetors were created by inexperienced humans trying to improperly clean carburetor jets and trying to perform five (5) thumb micro-dexterity re-builds.
Just hope this helps someone in the future when searching for float needle sticking.