Flathead ID?

[m_w92278]

Have this flathead which is a 59 block 24 stud, but it has 81A heads according to vanpelts 81A heads were used until 42 and that block didnt start untill 46 . Am I right to assume that the block was a replacement block (possibly) or and I way of target here? And does anyone know what the 99A stamp is for that is below the heads?

thanks for the help

 

[JSeery]

About any head will fit on any blocks (as long as we're talking the same number of head bolts!). Same with almost all of the bolt on items on a block. Over the years these parts get switched around all over the place, it could have even occurred during a total rebuild. I you are wanting to ID a block you need to post photos of different views of the block itself. Need the front, sides, etc. It has the 59 cast in the bellhousing area so that narrows that down a little. Next question would be the cylinder bore size. I'm guessing here, but the number stamped on the intake surface of the block could have been from a rebuild. The 99A would indicate a 46. Wonder if someone transferred the frame/transmission number to the block surface.

 

[TerryOH]

Replacement block (originals were not stamped with a vehicle serial number) that was installed into a 46 Merc (99A) with the serial number 99A-xxxxxx as stamped into the block. The heads are Ford, I believe the heads had to be slightly modified in the valve area for proper fit to the 59 block.

 

[JSeery]

Terry, Vanplets numbers show the same prefex for Ford and Merc in 46, how do you know the difference?

 

[Kube]

Replacement block (originals were not stamped with a vehicle serial number) that was installed into a 46 Merc (99A) with the serial number 99A-xxxxxx as stamped into the block. The heads are Ford, I believe the heads had to be slightly modified in the valve area for proper fit to the 59 block.

Terry, you are correct in that the heads would have to been modified to fit the 59 block. If not, the valves would crash.

 

[Bluebell]

I agree with Terry and Cube. (ask me how I know) The valve line was shifted up hill in 1942? and the earlier heads (I was trying to fit 81T heads) the valves of a 59 block (mine is C69A, but the same) will hit the flat part of the head beside the valve pocket.(it is easy to tell because the head will never sit down)
Ford put out a special jig that was used to grind out the side of the valve pockets. It was reversed to do the other half of the job on each chamber. The pocket had to be ground the full depth of each valve pocket (obviously)
I have the info in a service manual called "Ford and Mercury V8 1932 - 48 by Scientific Magazines. It has a yellow and black cover.
I thought the compression ratio was low enough already, so ended up buying some ali C7RA heads.

 

[WQ59B]

O/P's 3rd pic shows the serial number stamped into the machined pad on the bell housing.

Question :: What does it 'mean' when that machined pad is blank?

 

[Kube]

O/P's 3rd pic shows the serial number stamped into the machined pad on the bell housing.

Question :: What does it 'mean' when that machined pad is blank?

I can answer this with at least a little bit of "authority" as I have researched this quite well while working on a '40 restoration manual.

The only numbers that were "typically" stamped on the deck were those indicating hardened sleeves (HS), aluminum pistons (AP), and Mercury (99). Other than that - nothing from the factory.

Thus, and to directly answer your question, a "blank" deck indicates the engine is standard bore, no hardened sleeves and steel pistons. In other words, simply a "stock" engine identical to the thousands of others built.

I will hazard an opinion on the block in question and say the serial number was stamped in to the block prior to a distant past rebuild.

 

[WQ59B]

By "deck" are you referring to the intake surface (vs. the machined pad on the bell housing)?

Would the presence of stars, IE: Ford stamps, indicate a dealer rebuild? Weren't the specific stamps/stars kinda of kept proprietary? If not, why would a 'garage' stamp a serial number on a rebuilt block?

- - - -
To recap, Kube : 'normally' there are no serial number stamps on a 239, just what you detailed above - is that correct?

 

[Kube]

By "deck" are you referring to the intake surface (vs. the machined pad on the bell housing)?

Would the presence of stars, IE: Ford stamps, indicate a dealer rebuild? Weren't the specific stamps/stars kinda of kept proprietary? If not, why would a 'garage' stamp a serial number on a rebuilt block?

- - - -
To recap, Kube : 'normally' there are no serial number stamps on a 239, just what you detailed above - is that correct?

It is very possible an authorized Ford remanufacturer may have rebuilt this engine. There were many authorized places around the country that did just that - full time & tear round. Engines, starters, carburetors, distributors... the list goes on and on.
The stamps were available from KR Wilson to anyone that wanted a set. So, no, they were not proprietary - not at all.
Most engines rebuilt by an authorized Ford remanufacturer were subsequently sold on an exchange basis. In other words, you ( the customer) did not expect to get the same engine back that had been sent in. You simply "swapped" for a rebuilt unit.
However, it is a possiblity a customer may have insisted he / she get the exact same engine back.
In your case, I doubt this happened as the heads do not match the block. Most folks would have been more than pleased to get a newer engine - larger bore as an exchange. Few folks cared about "originality" back then. Remember, these were nothing but (cheap) used cars.

 

[rotorwrench]

The KR Wilson stamping kits were available to dealers. Some US states required the VIN to be stamped on the engine and dealers could do this in states so affected.

 

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I copied this for personal use and I don't remember where I found it originally. I would like to give credit but can't unless somebody recognizes it and lets me know. This refers to identifying flathead V8 blocks.

FLATHEAD ENGINE IDENTIFICATION

Identification of the early flatheads is best approached in terms of the block. There is an unbelievable amount of interchangeability for the accessories over the years. Count the number of head studs.
1) If there are 17 studs it is a V8 60 used in vehicles between 1937 and 1940. This engine was also used in the French built Simca in the sixties but I don’t know what occurred between these two periods. Look for casting numbers and stamped steel water jackets in the side of the block. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
2) If there are 21 studs the block was built 1932 to 1938. The transition to 24 studs was late in 1938. Check the water petcocks on the front of the block next to where the lower hose from the radiator enters either an inlet fitting (1936 and earlier) or the water pump (1937 and later). It the petcocks point straight down it is a 1932 block. If the block is not a 1932 next look for a vent from the crankcase area out through the front corner of the oil pan. If there is no vent the block is 1933-34. If there is a vent it is 1935 or later. As a matter of interest, the 1936 engines were the first to use insert bearings. Both insert and babbitt bearings were used throughout 1936. The insert bearing engines can be identified by LB cast at the top of the left front face of the block or by the letters LB stamped into the surface where the intake manifold attaches. Some engines were not stamped and in other cases people tried to inflate the price of their blocks by stamping LB into them when they were sold. Be careful. Now check for the locat1on of the water pumps. If the water pumps mount on the block the engine is 1937 or later. All engines beginning in 1937 were inserts. Frequently you will encounter a 1937 block with factory block off plates held on by two bolts over the water pump passage at the front of the block as it was common for Ford dealers to install this engine as a replacement in the earlier cars. Of course there will be slight transition periods at model change over with the older blocks usually going into the commercial vehicles. There may be subtle differences between the 1933-34 and the 1935-36 engines but I am knowledgeable enough about these years to know what they are. The casting numbers on the flywheel housing will also help identify the exact year of the engine. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
3) If there are 24 studs the engine was produced between late 1938 and 1953 (1954 in Canada). If the distributor is mounted on the front of the block the engine is late 1938 through 1948 (1947 for trucks). If the distributor comes up at an angle and appears more like a modern distributor it is a 1949 (1948 for truck) through 1953 (1954 in Canada). The casting numbers on the flywheel housing will further identify the exact year of the engine. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
4) There are a lot of additional foreign and industrial applications of these engines but the preceding covers the domestic US automobile production

 

[m_w92278]

ok thanks for the info everyone... i pulled the head off today and found that there was a round water hole in the center of the block, which was a mercury block identifier from what I have read an with the 99A stamp and 59 stamp i think it is a merc block from 46....Also found a remanufacturer's tag on the bell housing, I went to mic the bore and it was bored about .20 over as well. I think I might just have it figured out. If I am missing something let me know.

 

[rotorwrench]

If it has 59 on the bell housing, it was manufactured after the war. The 99 series block was manufactured from late 1938 through 1940. The 19A 239 block for trucks & Mercury cars began in 1941 and it was different in that it had no bulges on the sides of the block pan rails where the core plugs used to be plus the intake manifold deck appears to be raised from the surrounding block area. The 29A block had some internal differences that the 19A didn't have but the war starting in December of 41 caused production to go away very early in the 1942 model year so they are kind of rare. The post war 59 series blocks started with the 41A 221 block in late 1944 as a replacement for prewar 221 blocks that were wearing out after the war years. It has the 59 on the back but it has internal characteristics of the pre-war blocks and had 3 1/6" cylinder bore diameters with thin cylinder walls. The 59A 239 block was used in both Ford and Mercury vehicles starting in mid 1945 with trucks and then in late 1945 for passenger cars.

That number stamped on is just a VIN number but it does ID the year is was made. You can check the VanPelt web-site for VIN number for the different USA manufactured vehicles. All 239 CID vehicles had a VIN with 99 in it. This was the identifier for a vehicle with either the 95 Hp pre-war engine or the 100 HP post war engines.

This is an excellent thread for flathead V8 ID.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25301&showall=1

 

[JSeery]

Not sure where all this Mercury identification is coming from! From the referenced link:

"1946 Ford and Mercury engines are identical. This is the start of the 59 series motors. All engines feature 3 3/16 bore by 3 ¾ stroke for 239 cubic inches. The blocks have a 59 cast on the top of the bell housing, if someone hasn't ground it off. The front of the block now slopes from the intake rail down to the timing cover so the pencil test fails. The intake rail is back to flat. The water holes in the bottom center and middle center of the cylinder head deck are round. The cast in bell housing still has holes for the engine steady rods. Main bearings are 2.500 inches and rod bearings are 2.140 inches. Sometime during the war, Ford changed the angle between the valves. Pre-war blocks have 101.5 degrees between the valve centerlines and postwar blocks have 100 degrees between valve centerlines. This means the valves are about 0.090 inches further away from the bore on postwar blocks. This was done to reduce cracking between the valve ports and the bore. This also affects the cam timing a bit, so be careful that the cam you use is for the series motor you are using it in."

"The circular water holes in the center of the cylinder head deck can clearly be seen in this picture."

 

[G32]

ok thanks for the info everyone... i pulled the head off today and found that there was a round water hole in the center of the block, which was a mercury block identifier from what I have read an with the 99A stamp and 59 stamp i think it is a merc block from 46....Also found a remanufacturer's tag on the bell housing, I went to mic the bore and it was bored about .20 over as well. I think I might just have it figured out. If I am missing something let me know.

m W92278;
The single round center water port (triangle upper with trapezoid
lower) is an identifier of the pre-war 239 block --especially in case of a
1939-1941 221 block bored to 3 3/16. 221 had 2" rod journals---239 had
2.139" rod journals. re USA blocks.

Glad to see you on FordBarn
Where are you located?
Gene Tulsa

 

[JSeery]

This block has two round center holes with a triangle upper and a 59 on the bell housing, looks like a 46 block.

 

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I once had a flathead V8 that only had a "Y" cast into the top rear surface of the block where the "59" usually is located. I read where this was one of the war years blocks. It also had factory relief ground around the valves.
Just FYI.

 

[rotorwrench]

Most war years V8 blocks were made in Canada. There were blocks that had 59 series characteristics and no 59. It's hard to say if they were war time or post war. They may have been some of the blocks made for the 1945 trucks that started back into production in mid year 1945. Its the overall characteristics that tell the true story. If it has pre-war or post-war then that's where it's at. The Photo ID thread is the best thing going for ID. Most of us have heard all the urban legends about one type being better than another but there is no proof other than what was posted in that thread by 38 Coupe.

 

[scooder]

From what I can see from the pics I'll have to agree a jseery. It's a 59 block, post war. It has two round center holes, the bottom one if you look closely is round, it has a corrosion mark from a gasket with a trapizoid hole. It has no pencil shelf. The 59 marked blocks that were replacement (41A) have the pencil shelf AND 59 on the bell. It's just a post war 59 Block. No Merc block after the war, they all (Ford and Merc) used the same block.
In conclusion,
It's a 59 block, post war, Ford or Merc (same thing) with a 99A serial number stamped on it.
Martin.