Fine Point vs. Touring Class
- Thread starter 31Tudor
- Start date
Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
No harm meant, opinions do count. Some how I really did post on the wrong thread. I was thinking about the where is Bill thread. Too much coffee, Sorry!!!
Ken Ehrenhofer
Well-known member
From one of the 'fine point plodders': "it's the journey, not the destination". Still a work in progress (12+ yr) ... but then, so am IAs well stated previously, the many folks involved in the evolution of the JS and others (most of whom I will likley never actually meet) willing to share their knowledge (& elusive parts) is making this a fascinating journey ... other than the internal engine work, this is a 'home garage-do it yourself' project - have learned body work, painting (& sanding), upholstery, etc. (and yes, even which way the cotter pins point
). My special connection to this vehicle is that I often rode in it when I was young (in the 1950s) growing up in the dustbowl of Oklahoma-fortunately that area did not have enough water to actually rust anything!-last tagged 1965.
Chuck.....I do not want to hear it.......There will be a National Meet some where...Sometime where you will have to bring your truck to and enjoy a great time and meet all of us....YES this must happen.....See you there!
You have worked to hard to not bring that beautiful truck out so we can all kick tires and enjoy it,
Ken
This has been a good discussion. Now back to the original question, that is 'Fine Point vs. Touring Class Judging'.
First I would like to go on record to say that I have the greatest respect for those past and present members of both clubs JSCs' and others that contributed their knowledge, time, talent, and resources over the years from the 60s to present in order to develop and revise the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards. I do know what it takes to develop the RG&JS and to restore a Fine Point Model A. Regardless of the level to which you decide to restore your Model 'A' i.e., a simple fixer-upper or full blown restoration to a Henry level we all owe those members involved a great debt of gratitude and a huge THANK YOU!
Restoration of your Model A is no different than any other life experience, i.e., when you first start on any project you should always set your goal to the highest standard possible and within reason strive to achieve that goal. Reality is that journey may be more difficult or impossible for some but none the less try your best. The end result is that you may be pleasantly surprised, you may have accomplished more than you ever dreamed of, learned new skills, met many new people, make new lifelong friends that you otherwise would not have come in contact with, and learn things about yourself that you did not know you were capable of doing.
I was deeply involved with Touring Class Judging from almost the beginning and the subsequent eleven years. Most every question regarding MARC's TC Judging process can be answered by reading the Touring Class Judging Q&A article that appeared in the Sept/Oct 2006 issue of the Model "A" News, the Touring Class page of the MARC web site, or in the Touring Class Judging Standards.
I firmly believe anyone that follows the RG & JS, honestly researches their "A", tries their best, and for the most part does their own work can restore their "A" to at least a 3rd place in Fine Point and perhaps much higher. In addition I firmly believe that a 3rd place award in Fine Point is much more prestigious and says more about your ability than the top Touring Class Award. Both of these points I have made many times in the past.
With all that said, now back to the original question, 'Fine Point vs. Touring Class Judging'. Understand that both types of judging have completely different purposes. The purpose of Fine Point Judging is to verify the vehicle is restored to the condition it was in when new and the day it was assembled at the factory. Whereas Touring Class Judging is intended for a 'used car'. Perhaps the best analogy would be that Touring Class Judging could be compared to a manufactures used car certification program, i.e., while the vehicle is used it is expected that it will meet predetermined standard for appearance, condition, and function of various parts and components.
When the Touring Class Judging standards were first developed a 500 point system was not the goal, on the radar, and/or considered.
1995 - the first year of TC Judging there were a series of 119 questions with 3 levels of priority split between 5 Areas: 1) the highest were worth 10 points and generally corresponded to 13 of the 14 points of Fine Point Blue Ribbon Judging plus a few more items; 2) secondary were a number of items deemed to be important to the general original appearance and/or operation they were worth 3-5 points each; and 3) lastly there were an number of lesser details deemed to be important to the general original appearance worth 1-2 points each. The total number of possible points available was 489 points.
1996 - due to feed back and lessons learned Area 1 Engine was split to form the current 2 Areas (Right and Left sides of the engine) and additional questions were added with a series of 143 questions the total points available were 513.
1997 - again due to feed back and lessons learned, 3 questions were deleted and the value of some questions were lowered a point, the total points available were 500. It was felt that 500 points was a much more manageable number than some odd number of points while it still maintained the 3 priority point tiers for which the standards were based.
Many people over the years questioned why there were not more questions and/or items judged. Simple, the committee could have added many more questions but what would the end result be - specifically they would have added much more time to the judging process, more work for everyone involved, more chance for errors, and with all of this the end result would be no change in the award that any specific vehicle would receive. Further, to add more items perhaps the total TC points could have been somewhere between 700 and 1000 points. In addition, it was generally felt that if a person paid enough attention to the TC Judging Standards and the RG & JS to achieve a high score then they would take pride in their vehicle to ensure other items were also correct.
In summary, I do not recommend restoring a Model A to the Touring Class Standard, set your goal higher, restore your A according to the RG & JS, and do your best. Then when you are finished and depending on the time and miles that has passed after completion enter the vehicle where you feel comfortable.
First I would like to go on record to say that I have the greatest respect for those past and present members of both clubs JSCs' and others that contributed their knowledge, time, talent, and resources over the years from the 60s to present in order to develop and revise the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards. I do know what it takes to develop the RG&JS and to restore a Fine Point Model A. Regardless of the level to which you decide to restore your Model 'A' i.e., a simple fixer-upper or full blown restoration to a Henry level we all owe those members involved a great debt of gratitude and a huge THANK YOU!
Restoration of your Model A is no different than any other life experience, i.e., when you first start on any project you should always set your goal to the highest standard possible and within reason strive to achieve that goal. Reality is that journey may be more difficult or impossible for some but none the less try your best. The end result is that you may be pleasantly surprised, you may have accomplished more than you ever dreamed of, learned new skills, met many new people, make new lifelong friends that you otherwise would not have come in contact with, and learn things about yourself that you did not know you were capable of doing.
I was deeply involved with Touring Class Judging from almost the beginning and the subsequent eleven years. Most every question regarding MARC's TC Judging process can be answered by reading the Touring Class Judging Q&A article that appeared in the Sept/Oct 2006 issue of the Model "A" News, the Touring Class page of the MARC web site, or in the Touring Class Judging Standards.
I firmly believe anyone that follows the RG & JS, honestly researches their "A", tries their best, and for the most part does their own work can restore their "A" to at least a 3rd place in Fine Point and perhaps much higher. In addition I firmly believe that a 3rd place award in Fine Point is much more prestigious and says more about your ability than the top Touring Class Award. Both of these points I have made many times in the past.
With all that said, now back to the original question, 'Fine Point vs. Touring Class Judging'. Understand that both types of judging have completely different purposes. The purpose of Fine Point Judging is to verify the vehicle is restored to the condition it was in when new and the day it was assembled at the factory. Whereas Touring Class Judging is intended for a 'used car'. Perhaps the best analogy would be that Touring Class Judging could be compared to a manufactures used car certification program, i.e., while the vehicle is used it is expected that it will meet predetermined standard for appearance, condition, and function of various parts and components.
When the Touring Class Judging standards were first developed a 500 point system was not the goal, on the radar, and/or considered.
1995 - the first year of TC Judging there were a series of 119 questions with 3 levels of priority split between 5 Areas: 1) the highest were worth 10 points and generally corresponded to 13 of the 14 points of Fine Point Blue Ribbon Judging plus a few more items; 2) secondary were a number of items deemed to be important to the general original appearance and/or operation they were worth 3-5 points each; and 3) lastly there were an number of lesser details deemed to be important to the general original appearance worth 1-2 points each. The total number of possible points available was 489 points.
1996 - due to feed back and lessons learned Area 1 Engine was split to form the current 2 Areas (Right and Left sides of the engine) and additional questions were added with a series of 143 questions the total points available were 513.
1997 - again due to feed back and lessons learned, 3 questions were deleted and the value of some questions were lowered a point, the total points available were 500. It was felt that 500 points was a much more manageable number than some odd number of points while it still maintained the 3 priority point tiers for which the standards were based.
Many people over the years questioned why there were not more questions and/or items judged. Simple, the committee could have added many more questions but what would the end result be - specifically they would have added much more time to the judging process, more work for everyone involved, more chance for errors, and with all of this the end result would be no change in the award that any specific vehicle would receive. Further, to add more items perhaps the total TC points could have been somewhere between 700 and 1000 points. In addition, it was generally felt that if a person paid enough attention to the TC Judging Standards and the RG & JS to achieve a high score then they would take pride in their vehicle to ensure other items were also correct.
In summary, I do not recommend restoring a Model A to the Touring Class Standard, set your goal higher, restore your A according to the RG & JS, and do your best. Then when you are finished and depending on the time and miles that has passed after completion enter the vehicle where you feel comfortable.
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RockHillWill
Well-known member
A HUGE thank you for your response to this post. It goes a long way to explain things that might not have been fully understood, and I appreciate your attention to the details of the points process.
I am also in huge agreement that we need to work together as a group to further the pleasant experiences for ALL those in our entire hobby as well as those that are members of either MARC or MAFCA.
I am also in huge agreement that we need to work together as a group to further the pleasant experiences for ALL those in our entire hobby as well as those that are members of either MARC or MAFCA.
31Tudor
Well-known member
Hey everyone, I also want to thank all of you for your input into my question. I have given my friend the info from this post and I am not sure what he has decided yet. I will continue my journey on my fine point restoration and I enjoyed reading a lot of great opinions and it helps to keep focused on my goal. Thanks.
DougVieyra
Well-known member
In 1984 I DROVE my newly (two years) restored 1928 Phaeton 400 miles to Portland, Oregon for the MAFCA NATIONAL MEET. The drive encountered rain, dirt roads, roads being paved, salty winds of the Oregon coast line, on-coming gravel trucks, etc. , plus all the normal 'wear and tear' of actually DRIVING the car 400 miles.
I had entered my car in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. As I was also a Judge at the meet, I had no time to do any 'clean up' other than a quick wash job. After the judging was completed, I discovered that in my rush to get to my Judging Station, I had not taken off the rubber brake/clutch pads (covering my NOS pedals), had forgotten to leave my original ignition key in the ignition switch, properly 'tune' my original Champion XXX spark plugs, and a host of other 'point-loss' items. And too, of course the car's paint did suffer from some road hazards.
Al the same, even with all my short-comings, the car won a FIRST PLACE in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. However, I have noticed that my driving the car a long distance to be judged, is a rarity - and there are points to be lost in doing so. Still it can be done.
I had owned the car for twenty years before it was restored in 1981, and still own and drive it regularly these thirty years after the 1984 MAFCA Portland Meet.
I had entered my car in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. As I was also a Judge at the meet, I had no time to do any 'clean up' other than a quick wash job. After the judging was completed, I discovered that in my rush to get to my Judging Station, I had not taken off the rubber brake/clutch pads (covering my NOS pedals), had forgotten to leave my original ignition key in the ignition switch, properly 'tune' my original Champion XXX spark plugs, and a host of other 'point-loss' items. And too, of course the car's paint did suffer from some road hazards.
Al the same, even with all my short-comings, the car won a FIRST PLACE in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. However, I have noticed that my driving the car a long distance to be judged, is a rarity - and there are points to be lost in doing so. Still it can be done.
I had owned the car for twenty years before it was restored in 1981, and still own and drive it regularly these thirty years after the 1984 MAFCA Portland Meet.
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