Engine starter, revision
- Thread starter Werner
- Start date
Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
I went and looked in my papers on starter-generator, I don't have any specs, ---I don't even have original new diameter (I can get that from NOS armature I have)
A lot can be taken and still work, look at the end ,many times the remaining thickness can be seen, they are thicker in the center, sort of a K shape where they are clamped to the hub
it should be turned so the mica is cut to the same level as the bars, do not undercut between the bars,
The Citroen can use the same drive as the model A---I have a traction too
A lot can be taken and still work, look at the end ,many times the remaining thickness can be seen, they are thicker in the center, sort of a K shape where they are clamped to the hub
it should be turned so the mica is cut to the same level as the bars, do not undercut between the bars,
The Citroen can use the same drive as the model A---I have a traction too
katy
Well-known member
Ditto
lindy williams
Senior Member
The low spring pressure and soft carbon brushes on a generator may smear the mica on the surface of the commutator. the higher spring pressure and hard copper brushes on the starter cut the mica away and avoid any chance of the conductive brush residue from getting between the commutator segment and shorting between them.
Werner
Well-known member
Hello,
thanks for that informations!
Unfortunately, the original thickness is no longer recognizable on the collector because the vertical flank was also turned over. The problem is that the individual collector fields are getting narrower due to too smaller collector radius. Then (in my opinion) also shallower electricity coals must be used. Because otherwise several fields simultaneously receive power.
The mica insulator is already flush with the copper. It must be deeply sawn because of the coal dust.
From the Citroen I could use a few spare parts. It is interesting that during Ford the Bendix sits behind the pinion and protrudes far into the bellbody. Poor bearing!
Hello Kurt,
you have a Citroen Traction Avant? What type? How does it look?
thanks for that informations!
Unfortunately, the original thickness is no longer recognizable on the collector because the vertical flank was also turned over. The problem is that the individual collector fields are getting narrower due to too smaller collector radius. Then (in my opinion) also shallower electricity coals must be used. Because otherwise several fields simultaneously receive power.
The mica insulator is already flush with the copper. It must be deeply sawn because of the coal dust.
From the Citroen I could use a few spare parts. It is interesting that during Ford the Bendix sits behind the pinion and protrudes far into the bellbody. Poor bearing!
Hello Kurt,
you have a Citroen Traction Avant? What type? How does it look?
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Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
The Ford brushes are hard copper, this will wear the mica at mostly the same rate as the commutator bars
Many European starters have soft copper/carbon brushes---they get undercut
It's a 1953 11B normal, this is old picture, I have it painted now and am putting parts in, most of the mechanical parts are done, need to get some chrome and cad plating done
Many European starters have soft copper/carbon brushes---they get undercut
It's a 1953 11B normal, this is old picture, I have it painted now and am putting parts in, most of the mechanical parts are done, need to get some chrome and cad plating done
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Werner
Well-known member
Good morning Kurt & others!
There were carbon brushes installed. I have used new one from the Traction (Duccellier), which looks like copper, it is just the surface.
Your 11 B is the last series, we call it "Koffer"-Modell. (Trunk, suitcase.) I have the predecessor, the "Rad"-Modell. (Wheel.) Also a "B".
How is the spare part situation in US? Here you have to be very careful, most comes from India and is very bad!
Is that a "Dyane" in the background?
Beste Ölfinger-Grüße,
Werner
There were carbon brushes installed. I have used new one from the Traction (Duccellier), which looks like copper, it is just the surface.
Your 11 B is the last series, we call it "Koffer"-Modell. (Trunk, suitcase.) I have the predecessor, the "Rad"-Modell. (Wheel.) Also a "B".
How is the spare part situation in US? Here you have to be very careful, most comes from India and is very bad!
Is that a "Dyane" in the background?
Beste Ölfinger-Grüße,
Werner
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Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
Don't worry about the smaller diameter, as it isn't much smaller, so you still use the same thickness copper brushes. As mentioned, you should never undercut the starter armature commutator.
Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
The starter uses two carbon brushes as ground brushes . The other two bronze-copper brushes of the starter connects to the field coils . Usually the metal brushes will last a lifetime. If the metal brushes aren't badly worn it is usually best to leave them alone. It is very close and the metal brushes are soldered on instead of being connected with screws like the ground brushes . If the armature brush wires get bent out of shape It will be difficult or impossible for the wires to clear the armature . It is pretty easy to ruin an otherwise good starter if a person doesn't have the correct tools to replace the field brushes . The mica between the segments of the commutator on the starter shouldn't be under cut as it will cause sparking when in operation. There is a big difference in undercutting the mica between the segments and turning down the commutator to restore roundness . A special armature lathe was used to true the commutator , if it is out of round .
Generators should have the mica undercut . I use a hack saw blade for this purpose . If the generator commutator is cut too much to obtain roundness , it can reduce charging ability . The more the commutator is turned down it will reduce charging ability depending on how much the commutator was turned down . If the generator commutator is out of round it can cause the brushes to bounce . If the brushes bounce , The needle of the ammeter will bounce as it charges .
Generators should have the mica undercut . I use a hack saw blade for this purpose . If the generator commutator is cut too much to obtain roundness , it can reduce charging ability . The more the commutator is turned down it will reduce charging ability depending on how much the commutator was turned down . If the generator commutator is out of round it can cause the brushes to bounce . If the brushes bounce , The needle of the ammeter will bounce as it charges .
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Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
Tom, he mentioned he was using Citroen traction duccellier brushes and they are soft, the starter that uses them is undercut
Werner
Well-known member
Hello dear helpers!
This starter motor is very similar to the type that Duccellier built. 4 carbon brushes. Duccellier stipulates during the revision that the mica must be sawed in 3/10 mm. So that dust and abrasion can not form an electrically conductive bridge due smearing.
My Kollector had to be turned off 7/100 because of ripple. The shaft had a side impact of 1.5 mm. Now there is a lot of sub-measure, I think. But the starter runs very clean and with high speed. Time will tell how long the armature is running ...
But there is another problem: The claw clutch in the Bendix has a crack. I also had the same problem with the bendix in my Citroen. There, the claw has broken through and the piece burned up exactly between two grinding carbons!
The problem was probably common, because in the subsequent starter drives Bendix built this claw clutch no longer. Only the spring has transmitted the entire force. However, the Citroen engine has only 760 cu. inch displacement.
Does anyone have experience with it on the A-motor?
The first picture shows the crack in the claw clutch of the Ford, on the second the cracked claw of the Traction.
This starter motor is very similar to the type that Duccellier built. 4 carbon brushes. Duccellier stipulates during the revision that the mica must be sawed in 3/10 mm. So that dust and abrasion can not form an electrically conductive bridge due smearing.
My Kollector had to be turned off 7/100 because of ripple. The shaft had a side impact of 1.5 mm. Now there is a lot of sub-measure, I think. But the starter runs very clean and with high speed. Time will tell how long the armature is running ...
But there is another problem: The claw clutch in the Bendix has a crack. I also had the same problem with the bendix in my Citroen. There, the claw has broken through and the piece burned up exactly between two grinding carbons!
The problem was probably common, because in the subsequent starter drives Bendix built this claw clutch no longer. Only the spring has transmitted the entire force. However, the Citroen engine has only 760 cu. inch displacement.
Does anyone have experience with it on the A-motor?
The first picture shows the crack in the claw clutch of the Ford, on the second the cracked claw of the Traction.
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Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
Ford sold it, part #B11357A
The grey car is a 57 Citroen AZU van
The grey car is a 57 Citroen AZU van
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
The parts shown in #14 is to keep the spring from being twisted inward to a smaller diameter. The parts spin on the shaft, so they don't transfer any drive power to the flywheel. The crack isn't much of a problem and can last for many years, but the broken part will need to be replaced.