Engine Rebuild Guide

Stretch Cab

Stretch Cab

Well-known member
I was in my shop last night working on the 36 and while taking a break thought about the two spare Model A motors I have. The thought came to me that I should be able to rebuild one of the motors myself.

I have normal shop tools. I have access to help from mechanic friends who know how to rebuild Model T and V8 motors. They would probably tackle a Model A motor also.

There are some good machine shops around.

Is there a book that gives a step by step plan for rebuilding the Model A motor? I have searched the archives and not found a source.
 
At this point, it's probably a closely held secret. One way to make tons of money is by being the select few that can do something properly, which is why it cost a small fortune to rebuild one. If everyone and their mother knew, it would be less than $1500 to rebuild an A engine with modern bearings. That's the going rate around here for rebuilt older engines, 4-6 0r 8 cylinders.

Regards
Bill
 
It's so closely held that the people who rebuild professionally have fierce disagreements with each other about the proper way to do it.
 
Removed my original post.

Stretch Cab,
I have found the booklet: THE MODEL A ENGINE by William & Paul Mcree a good source of general knowledge and may be what you are looking for.
Step by step for disassembly and the same for engine assembly is part of the book. Lots of general and detailed knowledge is included. I think it is what you are looking for.
Good day!

I just checked:
Snyder's currently has this book available from their website for $22.00.
 
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The art of performing good quality babbitt renewal is the big hurdle for most DIY guys. Machine shops perform a lot of services but bearing journal work is only done by a select few. There is enough of a learning curve on this that most folks are lost until they learn how to do it properly. A person would have to have some luck behind them if the crank & journal clearances are still in usable condition on all three mains.

If the block and crank are set up for bearing inserts then maybe a DIY guy can handle all the facets of engine overhaul. You can't find much more simple engines than flathead 4-cylinder model T and A units. It's far from rocket science to figure it out. There are likely several books on the subject. Rebuilding the Model A Ford Powerplant is one. The Les Andrews book Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook Volume 1 is another.
 
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Minus the machine work, Les Andrews books should be good for a guide. Like others have said the machine work is what is going to cost. The assembly is fairly straight forward.

Mike
 
Thanks Roto, I should have mentioned that I would be going with inserts because of the babbitt situation. I will check out the book you mention.
 
Dave in MN said:
Bill,
I just referenced my cost on just the parts that go into a rebuilt Model A engine using a reground camshaft, new insert rods, new pistons, laminated timing gear, steel crankshaft gear, modern valve set and all the rest of the small bits and pieces. From my spreadsheet with Minnesota sales tax included, the cost of the parts alone are: $1,444.98 This is not including the cost of the machining required on the block. A full rebuilt engine for "less than $1,500"....I cannot rebuild an engine for the difference of $55.02 Where are you getting your numbers? :>)

Good day!
Click to expand...

Like I said, that's the going rate of much more modern engines. I get my Geo Metro (4cyl) rebuilt (3 so far), balanced and blueprinted for $1500 out the door from JMS Racing in El Monte. There is a shop that has built a dodge 318 for me for $1600 out the door. An old aluminum Buick 215 for just shy of $1500. None of the engines were blown up, so cranks and cams were just reground, one Geo needed a new cam. Valves reground, surfaces fly-cut flat, new oil pumps and such. They did all short block assembly and I put the heads on. It's the lack of knowledge that drives up the model a rebuild price. I would assume rebabbitting is a major part of the overall rebuild cost other than physical parts.

Regards
Bill
 
Stretch Cab said:
I have normal shop tools. I have access to help from mechanic friends who know how to rebuild Model T and V8 motors. They would probably tackle a Model A motor also. There are some good machine shops around.

Is there a book that gives a step by step plan for rebuilding the Model A motor?
Click to expand...

BillCNC said:
At this point, it's probably a closely held secret. One way to make tons of money is by being the select few that can do something properly, which is why it cost a small fortune to rebuild one. If everyone and their mother knew, it would be less than $1500 to rebuild an A engine with modern bearings. That's the going rate around here for rebuilt older engines, 4-6 0r 8 cylinders.
Click to expand...


I think the key take-away from this is it really is not a secret as much as it is more about possessing quality tooling it takes to do an acceptable job. Our level of expectations are much greater today than what they were 50 years ago IMHO. Many of today's "home shops" or 'semi-pro shops' have old equipment that (-at least from my experiences) are worn out and can only produce marginal work. The level of expectations from the consumers I speak with are now where they desire an engine that can be reliable for more than 30k-40k miles. Equipment costs for a well-tooled shop are astronomical (i.e.: over $100k). Even more-so for shops that have the proper tooling to cast & pour bearings.

To expound on Bill's thoughts about costs, I am going to list the operations that I do and the equipment that is used, -and then I would like everyone to mentally assign a time that you would budget for performing that operation. If you are unfamiliar with the times, then ask or just substitute a price.


  • Disassemble by removing all reusable core parts and expendables. (-includes removing head studs, pistons from connecting rods, valves, guides, etc.)
  • Remove old bearing material and broken fasteners in Cylinder Block.
  • Thermal Clean all engine parts in Oven to remove oil & grease.
  • Jet Washing of all parts in Wash Cabinet.
  • Shot Blast Cylinder Block and all parts in RotoBlaster.
  • Test & record Cylinder Block walls and deck thicknesses with Sonic Tester.
  • Crack-check Cylinder Block with Wet Magnaflux.
  • Pressure Test Cylinder Block with air pressure and block-off plate tester.
  • Install Bearing Mandrel onto Block to cast Bearings. Dam all openings.
  • Pour bearing material into 3 main journals. Peen castings, and trim flashing. Drill & clean all oil passages.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Resurfacer. Indicate off of Pan Rails and set-up for leveling deck surface to ℄ of Crankshaft.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Head Machine and install valve guides.
  • Measure Valve Seat margins and machine Block for new Seats.
  • Machine Valve Seats for 3-angle. Check concentricity of seat to guide. Label & lap corresponding Valve. Vacuum check for leakage.
  • Measure wear in Lifter Bore clearances in Cylinder Block and set-up in Mill to machine for over-sized tappets.
  • Measure Camshaft Bores in Cylinder Block. Set-up and bore for Camshaft with O/S journals if needed.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block for cylinder boring on Boring Bar. Bore 4 cylinders.
  • Measure diameter of replacement Pistons and record numbers.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block in Honing Machine and hone to corresponding piston.
  • Deglaze cylinder walls and chamfer top of each cylinder.
  • Check & measure end gap on new Piston Rings and file to size.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block in Head Resurfacer and machine to finish under 10RA.
  • Move Cylinder Block to cleaning area. Degrease and pressure-wash. Add rust-prevention chemical to all machined surfaces and paint casting.
  • Mediablast Crankshaft. Remove Crankshaft Gear.
  • Check Crankshaft in wet Mag machine for cracks.
  • Set-up Crankshaft into Crankshaft Grinder and indicate for straightness.
  • Remove Crankshaft and straighten. Measure journal wear and record.
  • Install Crankshaft into Grinder and resize all connecting rod journal pins.
  • Reset Grinder to resize all main journal pins.
  • Recheck straightness of Crankshaft and straighten in Crankshaft Press. Verify Flywheel flange runout, -and machine if necessary.
  • Clean, and machine Main Bearing Caps for parallel surfaces.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings onto Main Caps.
  • Machine Oil Dams and Oil Grooves in all 3 Main Caps and Main Bearings.
  • Install Main Caps and shims to Cylinder Block, and torque to specs.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Align Boring Machine and set-up bar for proper Crankshaft gear to Cam gear backlash.
  • Bore 3 Main Bearing to proper size correlating with Crankshaft journal pin size.
  • Set-up and cut forward thrust surface of Rear Main in proper location.
  • Measure Crankshaft Thrust surface clearance. Set-up Thrust Cutter and size Rear Main Thrust to match Crankshaft clearance.
  • Remove Cylinder Block from Align Boring Machine and set-up to finish oil passage holes. Chamfer and blend holes in bearings.
  • Install Crankshaft into Cylinder Block. Mount Cylinder Block to drive unit and burnish Main bearings. Adjust & remove shims for fit.
  • Set-up 4 Connecting Rods for rebuilding. R&R Wrist Pin bushings. Mic corresponding Piston Pin and hone replacement Bushing to size.
  • Grind 4 Connecting Rod Caps in Cap Grinder and prep rods for casting bearings.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings onto Rod Caps.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings into Connecting Rods.
  • Set-up and cut Oil Grooves in 4 Connecting Rods & Caps. Drill and chamfer dipper oil holes. Clean remaining flashing.
  • Set-up and bore 4 Connecting Rods in Connecting Rod Lathe.
  • Check 4 Connecting Rods for straightness, and straighten in Rod Press.
  • Clean, set-up, and machine Flywheel. Install Starter Ring Gear onto Flywheel.
  • Install new Gear and Dowel Pins onto Crankshaft.
  • Set-up Crankshaft in dynamic Balancer and machine for balance <10 grams. Install Flywheel to balanced Crankshaft and balance as assembly. Install Pressure Plate to Flywheel and balance as 2nd assembly.
  • Weigh 4 Connecting Rods on big end, small end, and overall and match weights to ± 1 gram.
  • Weigh 4 Pistons and Pins, machine, and match weights to < 1 gram.
  • Set-up Flywheel Housing in grinder and machine housing to parallel sides.
  • Measure Valve Spring pressures on Valve Spring Tester and match compressed pressures using shims.
  • Disassemble, clean, r&r bushings & line-hone, and rebuild Oil Pump.
  • Clean Rear Main Cap passages, re-install Drain Tube and Welch Plug.
  • Rebuild Oil Pump Drive Assembly.
  • Chase Threads on all bolt holes on Cylinder Block, and repair as necessary.
  • Install corresponding Pistons to Connecting Rods for 4 cylinders.
  • Install Piston Rings onto Pistons and index Ring location.
  • Install Tappets and Camshaft. Install Cam Gear
  • Install 8 Valves, Springs, Retainers, and Locks.
  • Adjust lash clearance on 8 Valves.
  • Install Crankshaft into Cylinder Block. Torque Fasteners.
  • Install 4 Pistons & Connecting Rods. Connect Rods to Crankshaft and torque nuts.
  • Install Flywheel Housing and verify runout.
  • Set-up and machine Cylinder Head to finish under 10RA.
  • Install Cylinder Head Studs and set to proper height.
  • ...finish assembly.


As I sit here waiting on results at the doctor's office, I feel certain I have leftout some ops in the list above but this should be enough for most folks to realize what goes into a Model-A engine rebuild, and that $1,500.00 is honestly not going to be able to purchase a decent rebuild on most vintage engines. If you disagree with me (-and that is ok), then help me out and list what you feel each of these operations is worth by writing the time necessary to do the job thoroughly ...and the cost of the specialty machine necessary to do a good job.

Even removing some of those operations in an effort to save $$ should still help us realize that restoring a vintage engine is a very labor intensive process. Even those who choose to go with an insert bearing conversion will still find it takes a significant amount of time. Time in most quality machine shops these days is billed at over $100.00 per hour.

.
.
 
alexiskai said:
It's so closely held that the people who rebuild professionally have fierce disagreements with each other about the proper way to do it.
Click to expand...

Kinda does seem that way doesn't it Colin. :D

I do think the bigger issue in that is/was the jealousy that some have towards other shops where in their ignorance they perceive others as a threat. My take is there is not a single shop in this country that can meet the demands for all of the consumers needing engines rebuilt. Instead of them being jealous towards each other, these folks need to look at the bigger picture. For example, Brian that just purchased AER has been to my shop a couple of times. Dave who posted above has been to my shop. Several others have too. On the flip side, I have visited other's shops such as Ora's, Randall's, and Ron & BJs, etc., ...have spoken with others like Dudley, Gene F, Jimmy, Bob B., et/al by phone on many occasions, and have emailed countless others talking and exchanging ideas. None of those guys do I feel are stingy with info or knowledge they have learned from their experiences, and some of those 'grumpier ones' that were guilty of the jealousy are no longer around, so I think maybe that mindset is changing.
 
Brent, I have been to your shop but unfortunately you were out that day so got a tour from one of your guys. You have an amazing operation. I can't even begin to put a time on the process you have listed as it is all completely new to me. (Probably to most of us)

If I do rebuild one of my blocks it will be for the learning experience only. I enjoy looking at my cars and wrenching on them more than driving. I'm thinking about making a coffee table out of the one in the worst shape.

Hope your doctor report is good!
 
BillCNC said:
Like I said, that's the going rate of much more modern engines. I get my Geo Metro (4cyl) rebuilt (3 so far), balanced and blueprinted for $1500 out the door from JMS Racing in El Monte. There is a shop that has built a dodge 318 for me for $1600 out the door. An old aluminum Buick 215 for just shy of $1500. None of the engines were blown up, so cranks and cams were just reground, one Geo needed a new cam. Valves reground, surfaces fly-cut flat, new oil pumps and such. They did all short block assembly and I put the heads on. It's the lack of knowledge that drives up the model a rebuild price. I would assume rebabbitting is a major part of the overall rebuild cost other than physical parts.

Regards
Bill
Click to expand...


Hey Bill, I don't think we are really talking apples to apples here. A Model-A crankshaft (-and especially a Model-T crankshaft!!) is very hard to do because they are so flimsy. I can do one of your engine's crankshafts in 25% less time than I can do an A crank. Most modern crankshafts rarely need much straightening and do not require a huge radius fillet like an early engine's crankshaft does. Omitting the straightening process for a Model-A crank creates a flywheel wobble which can cause driveline vibration and the transmission jumping out of gear.

Next, it is likely most of those engines you mentioned above did not need to have the valve guides replaced because they were modern manganese bronze. Most Model-A engines that are rebuilt require the valve guides to be replaced. A worn guide on a Model-A engine affects seat concentricity, and because most seats in the block are damaged, it requires additional seat work -or a new seat installed and machined. Additionally most Model-A valves are junk too, so grinding them is not a good option if you desire them to last. Additionally, the two-piece original style valve guides that are available today are horrendous so most rebuilders install a modern stainless valve and a different type of guide.

While the cost of the poured bearing work is about ¼th the costs of a rebuild, again it appears you are not comparing apples-to-apples costs. In your engines, it appears all the rebuilder did was install new crankshaft bearings into journal saddles. If they would have ground the caps, then align-bored and align-honed your blocks to fit them to new bearing shells, your costs would have been significantly higher ...and closer inline with what it costs to install bearings in a Model-A engine.

Again, not trying to argue with you but more to explain that we may not being comparing the same items.


I will also point out that "balanced & blueprinted" means about the same as the term "Touring Engine" does in a Model-A engine. It generally is an overused and misunderstood term. Because those engines you had rebuilt will be about ±10 grams within weight of each other due to the counterweighted crankshaft, the balancing process is not nearly as critical whereas it is very different with a Model-A engine. True Blueprinting is also very labor intensive since combustion chambers must be ground & shaped to all be within a certain CC size amongst all cylinders, all of the ports must be sized and matched, pistons and rings sized to match each other. Generally from what I see on the engine machining forums, the general costs to 'blueprint' a performance engine rivals what your totals rebuild costs were. Not saying you did not receive that level of services on your engine, but the typical price most shops charge for that service is not in the same range as what you are quoting.
 
Brent,

JMS racing does do the actual balance and blue printing on my Geo engines. They have a good laugh when I bring one in, it's about the same size as a Keith Black head. They pretend they are still trying to find the rest of the motor. These engines come so smooth, it's hard to tell their running. These engines were driving 200+ miles a day for years which included going down, then back up a 4,000 mountain. I burned exhaust valves about every other year. Head rebuild would be $225. and could rebuild them only 3 times each before they were complete toast. Yup, ... $1500 out the door. Now I did have to buy a few things like timing belt, plug, cap, rotor and such.

I also had a 1990 4.9L 6cyl rebuilt for the same, $1500 built by a local builder.

Now I do admit, the 4.9, parts are very cheap as it was an industrial engine as well.

I also admit, we are not apples to apples, but if there were many more engine builders for our A motors, the price would be far cheaper which was the point I was making. ANYTHING can be learned by a skilled person, it's just not many folks have the opportunity to learn the skills that are required, or the machines old or new required for the job. Many capable people just don't have access to the knowledge that was handed down over time.

Regards
Bill
 
51cUvSPnTyL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg




Starting on Page 192, this handbook does a reasonable job of explaining how to take down & rebuild an engine.







 
Now we know why it makes sense to take a hard look at the Burtz Engine as a comparison that has been reengineered to eliminate the failures of the "A" engine and at a reasonable cost when you compare to a proper rebuild of an 85+year old engine.
 
Thanks Bob, I think I have that book and will take a look.

Nka, that's the type of expert but "Unknown" to you engine rebuild you advertise when you are selling. Or in my case, if I was buying.
 
I think I'm going to do a video on how you take the engine out. I was just reviewing all the YouTubes on engine swaps and every one of them either skips over the removal process or it's clear the guy doesn't really know how to do it. In the Hagerty video they only show the removal in the time-lapse.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
I think the key take-away from this is it really is not a secret as much as it is more about possessing quality tooling it takes to do an acceptable job. Our level of expectations are much greater today than what they were 50 years ago IMHO. Many of today's "home shops" or 'semi-pro shops' have old equipment that (-at least from my experiences) are worn out and can only produce marginal work. The level of expectations from the consumers I speak with are now where they desire an engine that can be reliable for more than 30k-40k miles. Equipment costs for a well-tooled shop are astronomical (i.e.: over $100k). Even more-so for shops that have the proper tooling to cast & pour bearings.

To expound on Bill's thoughts about costs, I am going to list the operations that I do and the equipment that is used, -and then I would like everyone to mentally assign a time that you would budget for performing that operation. If you are unfamiliar with the times, then ask or just substitute a price.


  • Disassemble by removing all reusable core parts and expendables. (-includes removing head studs, pistons from connecting rods, valves, guides, etc.)
  • Remove old bearing material and broken fasteners in Cylinder Block.
  • Thermal Clean all engine parts in Oven to remove oil & grease.
  • Jet Washing of all parts in Wash Cabinet.
  • Shot Blast Cylinder Block and all parts in RotoBlaster.
  • Test & record Cylinder Block walls and deck thicknesses with Sonic Tester.
  • Crack-check Cylinder Block with Wet Magnaflux.
  • Pressure Test Cylinder Block with air pressure and block-off plate tester.
  • Install Bearing Mandrel onto Block to cast Bearings. Dam all openings.
  • Pour bearing material into 3 main journals. Peen castings, and trim flashing. Drill & clean all oil passages.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Resurfacer. Indicate off of Pan Rails and set-up for leveling deck surface to ℄ of Crankshaft.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Head Machine and install valve guides.
  • Measure Valve Seat margins and machine Block for new Seats.
  • Machine Valve Seats for 3-angle. Check concentricity of seat to guide. Label & lap corresponding Valve. Vacuum check for leakage.
  • Measure wear in Lifter Bore clearances in Cylinder Block and set-up in Mill to machine for over-sized tappets.
  • Measure Camshaft Bores in Cylinder Block. Set-up and bore for Camshaft with O/S journals if needed.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block for cylinder boring on Boring Bar. Bore 4 cylinders.
  • Measure diameter of replacement Pistons and record numbers.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block in Honing Machine and hone to corresponding piston.
  • Deglaze cylinder walls and chamfer top of each cylinder.
  • Check & measure end gap on new Piston Rings and file to size.
  • Set-up Cylinder Block in Head Resurfacer and machine to finish under 10RA.
  • Move Cylinder Block to cleaning area. Degrease and pressure-wash. Add rust-prevention chemical to all machined surfaces and paint casting.
  • Mediablast Crankshaft. Remove Crankshaft Gear.
  • Check Crankshaft in wet Mag machine for cracks.
  • Set-up Crankshaft into Crankshaft Grinder and indicate for straightness.
  • Remove Crankshaft and straighten. Measure journal wear and record.
  • Install Crankshaft into Grinder and resize all connecting rod journal pins.
  • Reset Grinder to resize all main journal pins.
  • Recheck straightness of Crankshaft and straighten in Crankshaft Press. Verify Flywheel flange runout, -and machine if necessary.
  • Clean, and machine Main Bearing Caps for parallel surfaces.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings onto Main Caps.
  • Machine Oil Dams and Oil Grooves in all 3 Main Caps and Main Bearings.
  • Install Main Caps and shims to Cylinder Block, and torque to specs.
  • Install Cylinder Block onto Align Boring Machine and set-up bar for proper Crankshaft gear to Cam gear backlash.
  • Bore 3 Main Bearing to proper size correlating with Crankshaft journal pin size.
  • Set-up and cut forward thrust surface of Rear Main in proper location.
  • Measure Crankshaft Thrust surface clearance. Set-up Thrust Cutter and size Rear Main Thrust to match Crankshaft clearance.
  • Remove Cylinder Block from Align Boring Machine and set-up to finish oil passage holes. Chamfer and blend holes in bearings.
  • Install Crankshaft into Cylinder Block. Mount Cylinder Block to drive unit and burnish Main bearings. Adjust & remove shims for fit.
  • Set-up 4 Connecting Rods for rebuilding. R&R Wrist Pin bushings. Mic corresponding Piston Pin and hone replacement Bushing to size.
  • Grind 4 Connecting Rod Caps in Cap Grinder and prep rods for casting bearings.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings onto Rod Caps.
  • Prep, preheat, flux, install mandrels, and cast bearings into Connecting Rods.
  • Set-up and cut Oil Grooves in 4 Connecting Rods & Caps. Drill and chamfer dipper oil holes. Clean remaining flashing.
  • Set-up and bore 4 Connecting Rods in Connecting Rod Lathe.
  • Check 4 Connecting Rods for straightness, and straighten in Rod Press.
  • Clean, set-up, and machine Flywheel. Install Starter Ring Gear onto Flywheel.
  • Install new Gear and Dowel Pins onto Crankshaft.
  • Set-up Crankshaft in dynamic Balancer and machine for balance <10 grams. Install Flywheel to balanced Crankshaft and balance as assembly. Install Pressure Plate to Flywheel and balance as 2nd assembly.
  • Weigh 4 Connecting Rods on big end, small end, and overall and match weights to ± 1 gram.
  • Weigh 4 Pistons and Pins, machine, and match weights to < 1 gram.
  • Set-up Flywheel Housing in grinder and machine housing to parallel sides.
  • Measure Valve Spring pressures on Valve Spring Tester and match compressed pressures using shims.
  • Disassemble, clean, r&r bushings & line-hone, and rebuild Oil Pump.
  • Clean Rear Main Cap passages, re-install Drain Tube and Welch Plug.
  • Rebuild Oil Pump Drive Assembly.
  • Chase Threads on all bolt holes on Cylinder Block, and repair as necessary.
  • Install corresponding Pistons to Connecting Rods for 4 cylinders.
  • Install Piston Rings onto Pistons and index Ring location.
  • Install Tappets and Camshaft. Install Cam Gear
  • Install 8 Valves, Springs, Retainers, and Locks.
  • Adjust lash clearance on 8 Valves.
  • Install Crankshaft into Cylinder Block. Torque Fasteners.
  • Install 4 Pistons & Connecting Rods. Connect Rods to Crankshaft and torque nuts.
  • Install Flywheel Housing and verify runout.
  • Set-up and machine Cylinder Head to finish under 10RA.
  • Install Cylinder Head Studs and set to proper height.
  • ...finish assembly.


As I sit here waiting on results at the doctor's office, I feel certain I have leftout some ops in the list above but this should be enough for most folks to realize what goes into a Model-A engine rebuild, and that $1,500.00 is honestly not going to be able to purchase a decent rebuild on most vintage engines. If you disagree with me (-and that is ok), then help me out and list what you feel each of these operations is worth by writing the time necessary to do the job thoroughly ...and the cost of the specialty machine necessary to do a good job.

Even removing some of those operations in an effort to save $$ should still help us realize that restoring a vintage engine is a very labor intensive process. Even those who choose to go with an insert bearing conversion will still find it takes a significant amount of time. Time in most quality machine shops these days is billed at over $100.00 per hour.

.
.
Very informative but you should have included an intermission for a leg stretch and bathroom break. Thanks
Click to expand...
 
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