Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea

[Michael_Velling]

Compression is correct. Timingcover is from a Model b and this is the reason that the dimple doesent work.

Ordered a measurement and measured the tdc on 0.1 mm with this clock.

Adjusted the timing, checked the Compression, all valves new, all pistons new, all cylinders machined, all rod new..

But with a lot of turns the engine must suck fuel so that you see some fuel in the combusion chapter, or nit?

Michael Velling
Germany
www.velling.de

 

[Bob C]

I understand you have a B timing gear cover but could you post a picture
of where the distributor rotor is when the timing pin is in the gear dimple.

 

[jg61hawk]

With spark, compression and starting fluid you will get something if timing is right. You say the plugs are dry so the engine is not sucking the fuel. Try a crazy idea...spray starting fluid at the intake area...carb and intake and intake to block. Starting fluid will blow up anything...Perhaps you have an air leak at a simple gasket between the fuel supply and the cylinders. These are pretty simple....suck fuel, ignite, exhaust repeat....At this point I would not be bashful with someone cranking it with starter to spray the carb, the inlets and all over the area. You do have the fuel on right....remember the handle indicates OFF in the ON position...in other words the gas valve under the dash must be DOWN!!!! to allow flow....just what you not expect.

 

[jg61hawk]

You do have the fuel on right....remember the handle indicates OFF in the ON position...in other words the gas valve under the dash must be DOWN!!!! to allow flow....just what you do not expect. Do you have actual compression readings? Where is the spark... have you actually grounded a plug to the head and watched as someone cranks it?

I want spark at the plug grounded to the head, I want compression on 4 cylinders, I want to know TDC of number one when it puffs my thumb off the hole lines up with the rotor hitting number one. Now it won't start...OK I take the carburetor OFF and I spray starting fluid right into the intake manifold to make this baby at least pop for me. If it won't pop now you have mechanical problems not fuel. Take the carb right off...and try starting fluid direct.....

 

[jg61hawk]

I want spark at the plug grounded to the head, I want compression on 4 cylinders, I want to know TDC of number one when it puffs my thumb off the hole lines up with the rotor hitting number one. Now it won't start...OK I take the carburetor OFF and I spray starting fluid right into the intake manifold to make this baby at least pop for me. If it won't pop now you have mechanical problems not fuel. Take the carb right off...and try starting fluid direct.....

 

[Gene F]

Pull a couple plugs put a shot of something in there and put the plug back in. Sep on the starter and it should fire off. There is a chance the cylinder will be open and your either or WD-40 will escape, so be prepared to do it a couple times. It may not run, but if it is firing you will hear it try.

If not, the next simpleist thing to do it back off the ignition cable going into the distributor a turn or so, maybe more. If it is in too far it MAY push the "tang: on the lower plate up against the distributor body. If it does that it kills the current to the points (shorted circuit). I have actually had this happen.

 

[Dan Partain]

I'm not convinced that you will have really wet spark plugs if you are cranking with no spark or with the timing off. What I usually see is the carb dripping a lot of gas.

Since you can't use the timing pin to locate TDC due to using a Model B front cover, try this - Make sure you are using TDC on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke when you follow Les' instructions.
Take the spark plug out of the hole and put your thumb over the hole to feel for compression as the piston comes up. You can also see the piston through the spark plug hole with a flashlight.

 

[Gene F]

This will tell you if it is fuel or spark. Sure it could be timing, but I doubt it.

 

[ericr]

I'm not convinced that you will have really wet spark plugs if you are cranking with no spark or with the timing off. What I usually see is the carb dripping a lot of gas.

Since you can't use the timing pin to locate TDC due to using a Model B front cover, try this - Make sure you are using TDC on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke when you follow Les' instructions.
Take the spark plug out of the hole and put your thumb over the hole to feel for compression as the piston comes up. You can also see the piston through the spark plug hole with a flashlight.

I agree with you, Dan, if you over-choke the carb gas pours out of it.

Did we ever learn why he would have an incorrect timing gear cover on the car?

 

[kawagumby]

If the spark plugs are dry and you have compression, it is at least partly a fuel issue. Pull the plugs, squirt some gas in each hole (I'm not the first to say this), reset the plugs and it should fire or at least backfire (if ignition timing is off). The plugs should be getting wet with fuel (or at the very least stink of fuel) if it is just an ignition problem and the engine has compression - but that's not happening!

If it doesn't fire or backfire, you likely have more than just one issue, but at least you'll have more info about what's going on.

If it does fire or pop with gas in the cyl's, look to the fuel system first, especially the fuel supply lines and choke system - oh, and make sure the throttle valve is slightly open via the idle speed screw.


Do it, man...

 

[Jacksonlll]

Spray the starting fluid on the manifold gasket while cranking. That’s my guess. I changed a gasket today. Check torque on the four manifold nuts.

 

[dj]

if you take the number one plug out and turn engine over till you feel compression
and put the number on piston on top dead center the timing mark should line up
If it does not then the cam is not timed to the crank
Dennis

 

[nkaminar]

Michael,



Do not assume anything. Start with the basics.



1. Check the valve timing. Take out the number one spark plug. Turn the engine over with the hand crank and watch the piston move to top dead center. As the piston gets to the top, the valves will be either completely closed or both open just a small amount. If they are completely closed, rotate the engine 360 degrees so that the piston is again at the top. If both valves are open just a small amount, then the valve timing is correct. If not then you will have to change the cam gear until the valve timing is correct. You may need a little dental mirror and a torch (flash light) to see the valves.



2. Check the timing. Fully retard the spark lever (all the way up). Rotate the engine until the number one piston is at the top and both valves are fully closed. This is the position when the spark plug should be firing. Check to see if the points are just opening by rotating the distributor rotor back and forth. You have stated that you are getting a spark but you can check this again by rotating the rotor back and forth with the ignition on. The rotor should be pointed at the lead (wire) for number one spark plug.



3. Use an old oil can or similar to squirt a little gasoline in the carburetor. 30 cc will be plenty. Try to start the engine. If the starts then dies you have a fuel problem.

 

[Michael_Velling]

Good Morning from germany (8.24 AM)

Thanks a lot for all informations. Will try it today.

Here my answers for the questions:

1. I bought the car 1 Year ago and now i made the engine (new pistons, rods etc.). In this work i changed the timing gear with new ones. I ordered Model A timimg gears at Mikes. Then i found that the dimple is not TDC. Some guys here send me pictures of timing gear covers and my is a Model B cover (why ever).

2. Located TDC with my tools from the model t. Marked the pulley and adjusted the timing

3. Compression is good (new rings, cylinders machined and so on)

4. carburetor was the old one that runs on this car until January

5. distributor is the old one that runs on this car until january

We machined the engine because there was a lot of oil use (1 Liter = 40 km)

Michael

Going now to breakfast and then garage

Will send some picture later

 

[Michael_Velling]

Here some pictures from January to march:

 

[Michael_Velling]

Here are two pictures:

one from the "wrong" Model B timing cover and

one when piston #1 is in TDC the rotor is at the correct position i think


Tested the sparkplugs with the cable on the distributor - all have spark when cranking the engine

 

[Michael_Velling]

and the pictures of the carb checking yesterday:

 

[Boston Bruce]

Going with those last two pictures, if in fact the #1 is at TDC then the timing appears just a bit retarded but not so much that the engine shouldn't start.


If you turn the engine over and pull the choke out ("over-choke" it) then fuel should really drip out the carburetor intake. Is that happening?


Are you sure the valves are adjusted correctly?


You just need those three things: spark, fuel and compression


spark_fuel.jpg

 

[Will N]

If I read all this correctly, you are finding top dead center of the #1 cylinder by probing the piston through the spark plug hole because you may have a Model B front cover, and you are setting the ignition timing from there. Are you sure you have the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke and not on the exhaust stroke?

 

[nkaminar]

Michael,



From the last photo (#15) it looks like the valves are timed correctly. As Will N and other have said, check that the timing is not 180 degrees out by using your thumb or watching the valve action. Try squirting 30 cc of gasoline in the carburetor.



Do you have the throttle open a few clicks? The engine usually needs the throttle open a bit to start.



Beautiful car, by the way.