Engine "click" noise-Need some help

pat in Santa Cruz said:
I am thinking what you call a spacer plate is the flywheel dowel retainer plate. It goes between the flywheel and the bolt heads and covers the dowel holes to keep them from coming out if they loosen. If indeed you did install it between the flywheel and the crankshaft flange, you might have a problem. I do not know if that would be the source of the click, but its not the right way to install a flywheel. It could shim it back enough so the ring gear teeth strike the bendix teeth and possibly contribute to wobble as well.
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Pat, I am pretty sure I put the "flywheel dowel retainer plate" back in the same way I took it out. But if I didn't, then after all these other checks that have been suggested are made, I may need to go back and check this one out again-I hope I don't have to. But the way I understand this situation, if I messed up, the bolts will stick through to far and eventually will wipe out the rear main seal and oil will start to drip out of the flywheel cover-hope this does not happen.

Thanks for the help.
 
Fred K-OR said:
Pat, I am pretty sure I put the "flywheel dowel retainer plate" back in the same way I took it out. But if I didn't, then after all these other checks that have been suggested are made, I may need to go back and check this one out again-I hope I don't have to. But the way I understand this situation, if I messed up, the bolts will stick through to far and eventually will wipe out the rear main seal and oil will start to drip out of the flywheel cover-hope this does not happen.

Thanks for the help.
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"Back in the way it came out" is only correct if it was correct in the first place.:D It would not cause the bolts to strike the aluminum seal if it were installed between the flywheel and flange. The distance of the bolt tips would remain the same. However, I seriously doubt the retainer would fit into the flange recess without modification. I'll check one out tomorrow and let you know if it does. I only bring it up because of the wording of your description. I've never seen nor heard of such a thing

BTW, A worn center cam journal is not unusual, and can make a click not too much unlike a valve. The sound would run up the distributor shaft. Place your listing device on the block casting which houses the shaft, right below the valve cover.
 
"BTW, A worn center cam journal is not unusual, and can make a click not too much unlike a valve. The sound would run up the distributor shaft. Place your listing device on the block casting which houses the shaft, right below the valve cover."

Thanks Pat for this comment. I will try it. When I put my listing device on the distributor body, the click seemed to me (not knowing what I should try to hear) to be louder. So will give it a try.
 
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Peter J said:
Fred,
Mine does the same thing. Tried all the same tricks you did but no luck either. Folks suggested possibly a broken ring, wrist pin noise or piston. Mine is somewhat irregular but definately a click rather than a knock.
Pete
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Pete, if it was a broken ring or wrist pin noise, wouldn't the noise change when I shorted out each piston? It did not change.
 
Like Pat said,, the distance/length would be the same so the bolt shouldn't extend too far.. The easy way to check is just remove the front flywheel cover and look at how far the bolts extend thru the crank flange [they shouldn't].. That dowel cover should only be able to go on one way if I remember correctly,, but,, anything can be done if you work on it long enough..
Without going back and re-reading your original post,, what were you using to find the noise ?? Try to pin it down with a stethoscope, screwdriver, hose, dowel,etc.. Without any more info,, I'm still leaning toward valve lash/clearance, distributor drive.. If a new drive gear has been put against the old cam gear then they can argue for awhile until they get used to each other.. If it turns out to be valve lash then that should be an easy fix since I think you said you had adjustable lifters.. Personally I'd rather hear them rattle a little than not..
 
Patrick L. said:
Like Pat said,, the distance/length would be the same so the bolt shouldn't extend too far.. The easy way to check is just remove the front flywheel cover and look at how far the bolts extend thru the crank flange [they shouldn't].. That dowel cover should only be able to go on one way if I remember correctly,, but,, anything can be done if you work on it long enough..
Without going back and re-reading your original post,, what were you using to find the noise ?? Try to pin it down with a stethoscope, screwdriver, hose, dowel,etc.. Without any more info,, I'm still leaning toward valve lash/clearance, distributor drive.. If a new drive gear has been put against the old cam gear then they can argue for awhile until they get used to each other.. If it turns out to be valve lash then that should be an easy fix since I think you said you had adjustable lifters.. Personally I'd rather hear them rattle a little than not..
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Thanks Patrick for the info on how to check the flywheel bolts.

I used an electronic type stethoscope that I purchased from HF.

The engine I installed I had purchased from a fellow my son knew. This fellow did not have any history on what had been done with the engine. So when I got it, I took the pan off, checked the rod bearings and they were all within .001-0015. The marks they put on when they re bore a cylinder were still showing on each cylinder. Also I looked in the spark plug holes (did not take the head off) and inside every one looked very clean-no carbon. So I assumed (you all know what that means (*** u me) that the engine had been rebuilt shortly before this guy took it out of his A. Thus I installed the engine as it had come to me. I did replace the flywheel cover because one of the rear motor mount areas had been welded up. So thought it would be a good idea to replace it. That is why I took off the flywheel.

Thus I did not do anything with the cam/distributor drive area nor do I know what was done with it before I got the engine.

If all else in the checking I do does not find anything, I may go and take the valve cover off again and do some checking of the lifters like was suggested or just put up with the noise.

Thanks again for the ideas.
 
Fred K-OR said:
"BTW, A worn center cam journal is not unusual, and can make a click not too much unlike a valve. The sound would run up the distributor shaft. Place your listing device on the block casting which houses the shaft, right below the valve cover."

Thanks Pat for this comment. I will try it. When I put my listing device on the distributor body, the click seemed to me (not knowing what I should try to hear) to be louder. So will give it a try.
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Pat, I went down to the shop today and froze my b#$$ off and tried out your advise. I put the listing device on the spot you mentioned and yes the click can be heard there. But I could also run the device back and forth from this spot in the lower block area to the rear of the block and to the front of the block, and found the click could be heard all the way along the route I took with the device but it did not seem to be as loud as it was on the shaft area. I also put the listing device in other spots on the engine, timing gear cover, head, valve cover, rear motor mounts, etc. and I could still hear a little click but not near as much as in the lower part of the block. But I have an untrained ear that may not know what it is hearing!

So with the possibility that it may be a worn cam journal, where do I go from here? Can I just let it click and ignore it? Will it destroy the engine if I do nothing? What will it do from here-get louder, mess up the cam, or ??? What is involved to fix the situation assuming it needs to be fixed-pull the engine or can it be fixed other than an engine pull? Sorry, just a lot of questions from a guy that knows nothing about these sorts of things.

Thanks again for the information.
 
Originally Posted by 700rpm
I know a guy who had a tick in his A. He thought it was in the wood.

Fred K-OR said:
Guess there is a guy like this in every crowd. :D
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It turned out to be in his clock. The timing was off. He doesn't want to tock about it.
 
Fred,

Without actually hearing the noise, all I can do is guess from your description. It might just be an uneven tappet. Adjustable tappets come with the top uneven, sometimes even with a small point in the center. I always have them decked for even, quiet contact. But my guess is a lot of them just get installed right out of the box. A light click from the valve area from a loose adjustment, uneven tappet or loose cam bearing will probably not hurt anything. I would try adjusting the valves, as it might just be that. My best advice is for you to find a local mechanic or machinist , preferably familiar with Model A's ( try your local club chapter...there must be several in the Portland area) who can listen to it and give you an experienced opinion.
 
pat in Santa Cruz said:
Fred,

Without actually hearing the noise, all I can do is guess from your description. It might just be an uneven tappet. Adjustable tappets come with the top uneven, sometimes even with a small point in the center. I always have them decked for even, quiet contact. But my guess is a lot of them just get installed right out of the box. A light click from the valve area from a loose adjustment, uneven tappet or loose cam bearing will probably not hurt anything. I would try adjusting the valves, as it might just be that. My best advice is for you to find a local mechanic or machinist , preferably familiar with Model A's ( try your local club chapter...there must be several in the Portland area) who can listen to it and give you an experienced opinion.
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Pat you are correct. With my very limited experience with this sort of thing, I am kind of going around in circles trying to find this. I do have a guy in this area that rebuilt one of my other engines that I need to get him to listen. He is very busy so it may be awhile before I can get to him. I also belong to a local club that has a lot of guys that have far more experience than I do. So I need to use my local resources. Thanks for trying to help and also thanks to everyone that also offered some advise on this situation. I may mess around with it myself and maybe learn something, until I can get a pro to give me a hand.
 
I had one that done made that same noise. It was the timing gear. it had the metal center and had come loose from the fiber part. Changed it out stopped the noise,
 
Fred,
If it's a valve/lifter tick, I've had good success in localizing it using an open hose on the stethascope. Just run the hose along close, but NOT touching the valve side cover. With using the probe, sometimes the noise transmits & is hard to localize. Sometimes a pin hole leak at one exhaust port can also sound like a "TICK." Use the hose to check for such a possible leak. Hose can also check for vacuum leaks. They will scream like a "BANSHEE!" Some noises from distributor/shafts are quite NORMAL when checking with the open hose or with the probe. (Who says I can't be serious?---- THE DOG'S LAUGHIN'!) Bill W.
 
Well this is the old no nothing pest again. After all the ideas you all presented and some of the checks I have made on this clicking noise, I feel (hey, I an getting modern with "feelings") that the noise is coming from either the timing gear area or one of the tappets. So have some more questions.

With the engine in the car, if I take the carb off, the oil return tube and the valve cover off, will that give me enough room to do a tappet check and maybe adjustment? Or do I also have to take the exhaust pipe and manifold off?

Second question. If I want to take the timing gear cover off to check it out, do I need to take the radiator off?

Would like some ideas because I am lazy and don't want to do any more work than I have to. Thanks again for ideas. I hope I get this thing solved so I don't have to bother you all again.
 
Removing the carb and valve cover should allow you to adjust the valves.

No need to remove the radiator to remove the timing side cover and check the gear. But, If the timing gear needs to be changed, it sure would be easier with the radiator out of the way.
 
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