Door & Hood Alignment

[A-Man]

I am at the restoration stage of aligning the doors and hood on my 1930 Model A CCPU.

I have researched the Fordbarn and other Model A Forum archives, as well as many of the resources available to me, including Marco’s “Door Alignment” section in “The Model ‘A’ Barnyard”, Les Andrews “Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook – Volume II”, and THE RESTORER's “How to Restore Your Model A – Volume 2".

After numerous attempts, I now have the firewall hood welting frame perpendicular to the fender apron. As a result the passenger door appears to be close in alignment, with body lines on the cab and on the passenger door about lining up. Not quite so on the driver side, as the door has a rear sag showing, and the body lines on the cab and on the driver door not lining up. See pictures.

At the start of the restoration process, I replaced the frame that came with and was under the cab with an original 1930 frame. Based on the number stamped on the frame that came with the pickup, the frame was a 1929 frame. However, the cab appeared to be a 1930 cab. I had the 1930 frame check for straightness and sagging by having it checked by an auto body shop and myself.

So what is the problem – in order to achieve the current alignment, ie., getting the firewall hood welting frame perpendicular to the fender apron, I had to install additional rubber shims/spacers under the cowl. I have about 9/16” of rubber shims/spacers under the cowl, and only one(1) body block rubber pad under the rear of the cab. See pictures. This alignment creates a large gap between the front of the cab and the running board sections that sets on the frame, and a corresponding gap between the bottom of the hood and the fender shelf. See pictures. As a result, I am not able to latch the rear hood latches.

I am unable to get the radiator shell perpendicular to the fender apron. I have adjusted the radiator support rods to obtain the 31-3/8” measurement from the base of the cowl band at the front edge of the cowl band to the base of the radiator shell at the hood edge.

Finally, I have installed an additional radiator mounting pad under each side of the radiator.

I believe the hood alignment to the cowl and radiator shell is getting close to being correct. However, the gap spacing between the bottom of the hood sides and the fender apron is not acceptable to me. So, I am hoping to get some ideas as to what I should do next or undo.

What is the first thing a person should do when aligning the hood and doors? If I understand correctly, is getting the firewall welting frame perpendicular to the fender apron one of the first priorities? What then would the next step(s) to take. I just do not know where to go from here. I really would like to reduce the body shimming to no less than 3/16", and no more than 3/8" at any of the body bolts. I am aware this process requires understanding, finesse and patience. I would apprciate any comments/suggestions to assist me.

 

[Dan Partain]

Here are my thoughts on the problem.

Forget about your hood and radiator for a minute and see if you can get your cab/doors aligned first.

If you straightend your frame with the engine out, check it again after the engine has been installed to make sure nothing has changed.

Assuming your frame is straight, I would check and try these things -

1. Make sure your hinge pins are tight in each hinge.
2. Make sure your hinges are tight where they attach to the doors, and to the door jam. (You should be able to open the door a few inches and then test it by pulling up and down without any noticeable play in the hinges).
3. Make sure the hinges are not bent out of shape causing the door to sag up or down.
4. Make sure the space between the front of the door and the jam is even for the full length of the door.

Shimming the cab -
Put an even amount of shims under each body bolt mounting area.

What does the cab look like at this point?

If the doors sag at the latch area, add shims to the bolts at the rear of the cowl but not the front of the cowl. Add shims until the reveals line up at the rear of the door and cab.

If the doors are too high at the latch area, add shims to the front of the cowl to line up the reveal. You could also add shims at the rear cab bolts for this problem. If you add shims to the rear of the cab, keep in mind that you will probably want an equal amount of shims on each rear bolt. If you have shims on one side and not the other the cab may look misaligned with the pickup bed.

Think of your cowl as the main aligning factor for the cab and doors. You will be tilting the cowl assembly forward or aft with shims which will cause the rear of the doors to raise up or lower relative to the rear of the cab.

Just as a note, I had an unusual problem with my cab. One side lined up fine and the other side would not line up with the same amount of shims. It took me some time to figure it out but it was a problem with my subframe. Turns out that the subframe had been cracked and welded at some point in the past. It was welded in a way that obstructed a correct alignment between the cowl and the rear of the cab on that side. I was able to bend the subframe a little on that side and then everything lined up correctly with the body bolts and shims.

After you get your cab/doors aligned properly you can start lining up the hood and radiator. You will probably want to start that process with standard thickness shims under the radiator. Take a look at the hood fit and then raise, lower, and tilt the radiator fore and aft as necessary.

You said you now have a 30 frame so it should have the proper crossmember with the lower radiator mounting points. However, if it seems that you can't get the radiator low enough for the hood to align properly it will then be necessary to install an equal thickness of shims under all of the body bolt mounting areas. This will raise the cab equally and maintain the door adjustment you just achieved.

That should give you some more ideas to work with.

 

[Popeye31]

Im a body man of 18 years and Dan is right on the nose on the proper alignment technique. the caband doors first than worry about the hood. Im in the patch panel stage and just got finished aligning the body and doors to make sure when I put my patch panels on they are on straight. I have to put all lower patch panels all the way around and I am also replacing the sub rails and back cross sill.
Mine lined up farly good just the blocks and one rubber shim and two under the front of the cowl on the passenger side and three under the driver side. It can be a little time consuming unbolting and bolting but the final out come will be worth it.

 

[A-Man]

Thanks, Dan and Popeye31. Your responses make sense. I really appreciate your help. I will redo what I did and start with the door alignment first. Thanks again.

 

[Timsalways]

I am at the restoration stage of aligning the doors and hood on my 1930 Model A CCPU.
I would apprciate any comments/suggestions to assist me.

Hi, your last pic. show's that corner hood piece was installed wrong. the seam needs to be hidden. you know I have heard "yo dooes open" more then a few times lately. Looks like I will be trying the body thing, Thanks to all!

 

[48 fordor]

Looks like I am heading in the right direction by doing the hood last. The last thing to do on a full frame off restoration on a 30 roadster. The doors were a real pain with lots of shim & re shim.
I got to the hood and it lines up to the cowl but hits the radiator SS on the right. If I read all this right, I need to look at the radiator mounting and work on that.

 

[ericr]

I'd like to ask Dan and Popeye if they think references to standard linear measurements in various body/hood alignments are actually useful, given a presumption that these bodies have been beat to Hades and back. I'm sure those measurements had application to new cars.

 

[700rpm]

If your 29 frame has a 29 front crossmember and everything else is 30, you are going to have trouble getting the hood aligned.

 

[Dan Partain]

I'd say that "standard linear measurements in various body/hood alignments" could be useful for comparison to a beat body/hood, if those measurements were available.

Maybe a more important starting point is to make sure your frame is straight, and check it diagonally to make sure it is "square."

Do the same thing with the body, measure everything diagonally. For instance, measure the windshield opening, then measure the lower cowl. If each of those are good, measure the entire cowl assembly as a unit. It's surprising how things can get bent out of shape in weird ways.

Measure the left rear to right front body bolt holes, and vice versa, make sure they're the same.

My pickup had a metal bar on the top of the cab that was riveted a little off center, so I know these bodies weren't all perfect from the factory. My cab also had some bends in the upper cab that looked factory since they were exactly the same on both sides. By looking at other cabs I figured out that those bends weren't supposed to be there and fixed them.

In the end you have to work with what you have, you have to make it all fit together. That process will be easier after you check all of these measurements and compare them to see what you have to do before you put the body on the frame with the rubber pads/shims.

 

[Jim Huseby]

After checking and correcting the frame for square, twist, sag (both sides), diamonding and banana shape, as already advised, and if your door still doesn't align pretty, or if you still have too large a gap from r,bd apron to frame under the hinge post, here's another thing to consider: The CCPU cabs were weak, even when new, and you can see that for your self by pushing forward by hand on the top of the left 1/4, and if the dove tail is removed, you will see the the rear of the door rise as the parallelogram door opening diamonds forward at the top. (The hinge post will tilt forward so that the rear of the door will rise). I adjust doors with the dove tails out so I can see the real fit of the door without the dovetail forcing it into the appearance of a good fit. You can square up the door opening with a small porta-power, using triangular blocks of wood to protect the paint in the corners. Get help if you're not sure of yourself on this.

 

[Jim Huseby]

Correction: the gap under the hinge pillar, or front of the cab, I was referring to is between the r'bd apron and the SUBframe, not the frame.

 

[Karl Wescott]

A lot of good advise above.

My take:

Get the doors to fit the body.
a. The gap between the cowl and door front is adjusted by bending the hinges.
b. The up/down alignment of the reveal at the back of the door is handled by shimming.

If you figure out you have a frame sag or some other issue you dont want to fix you could consider shimming UNDER the splash aprons and fenders, and using longer hood latch screws

 

[Zoltan]

Thanks Dan. I used your advice from JAN 2012 and aligned my coupe cab and doors with only a few tries. This helped immensely.
Jeff


"If the doors sag at the latch area, add shims to the bolts at the rear of the cowl but not the front of the cowl. Add shims until the reveals line up at the rear of the door and cab.

If the doors are too high at the latch area, add shims to the front of the cowl to line up the reveal. You could also add shims at the rear cab bolts for this problem. If you add shims to the rear of the cab, keep in mind that you will probably want an equal amount of shims on each rear bolt. If you have shims on one side and not the other the cab may look misaligned with the pickup bed.

Think of your cowl as the main aligning factor for the cab and doors. You will be tilting the cowl assembly forward or aft with shims which will cause the rear of the doors to raise up or lower relative to the rear of the cab."