Correct Timing Advance Curve

modelAbillh

New member
I have a model B engine with a B cam, 5.5+ head, weber downdraft, header etc. using a Mallory centrifugal distributor #2301105. Les Andrews, in his V II book on page 4-43 says this distributor is perfect for a B cammed engine . The specs say advance starts at 1250 engine rpm and maxs out at 24 degrees at 2875 rpm.

I am having trouble squaring this with statements made on page 4-87 of this same book where it says that a Model A Manual advance distributor with the lever all the way down can add up to 40 crank degrees advance.

I have a Sun Distributor machine and have checked the centrifugal advance of a standard original Model B distributor . The one I checked only added 4 degrees. I guess if you start with the pin - in - hole on the Model B timing gear you start with 19 degrees and with the 4 degrees the distributor adds you get 23 degrees total. Still a long way from 40 degrees.

Appreciate some enlightenment to straighten out my thinking here.. eg what should the approximate optimum advance be when running down the road at about 2000 rpm????

Bill H
 
ModelAbillh: my engine is built quite similar to yours expect I have a Model B carburetor. The advance curve I am using is very similar to the 1250/2850 curve you mentioned. I have my curve starting at 1000 RPMs and total advance of 28 degrees come in a 2400 RPMs. I find that my engine does not like more that 26/30 degrees of advance. My initial timing is set at 4/5 degrees BTC and advance stops at 28 degrees total advance. I have also reworked the Zipper distributor so I can retard the advance when pulling a long hill. I can retard it 18 degrees at any time just by moving the spark lever up.
 
The advance range on a stock Model-B distributor is more like 11-12 degrees. That yours got only 4 degrees makes me think it isn't working properly. Even a minor accumulation of dirt and corrosion can result in a significant reduction in the advance range. NOS Ford replacement advance units had an explicit statement on the box such that the unit was assembled and tested by the factory and warned about casual dissasembly or mixing the parts. A distributor testing device is a good thing to have.
 
Ford charted the advance curve in the Service Bulletins a couple times. They show it with an initial advance of 15 degrees. At 700 RPM it begins it's rise until it peaks at 29 degrees @ 2450 RPM. Obviously that is crankshaft degrees. There is definitely is a problem with your distributor!
 
It has been pointed out many times here that Ford's published advance curve for the Model-B was printed in error. Otherwise, how could an engineered-in 19 degrees of initial advance turn into 15 degrees on a chart that looks like it was adopted from that of the V-8 engine?
 
I also reworked my Zipper distributor. With a 7.5:1 head, mine starts at 10° initial and goes to 28° at 2000 rpm. Like Al in NY, I can also retard mine with the original lever when climbing steep hills.
 
It has been pointed out many times here that Ford's published advance curve for the Model-B was printed in error. Otherwise, how could an engineered-in 19 degrees of initial advance turn into 15 degrees on a chart that looks like it was adopted from that of the V-8 engine?

Ford was FAR from sloppy in engineering, testing, and documentation. If they had made an error they would have printed a correction and certainly wouldn't repeat the same error two years later. The REAL question as I see it is why did they choose to use the 'cheap gas' setting of the upper plate?

The advance curve on the V8 is considerably different and includes variables since it also uses vacuum.
 
There is nothing wrong with your dissy that Mallory is fully adjustable and can be set to any amount of advance it should have key with adjustment increments
Also a range of springs
You can fine tune on a dyno or by reading spark plugs
 
The Sun machine I use Give deg in Dissy deg not crank so your B dissy is close
initial 19 total 28 = 9 deg crank advance divide x 2 =4.5 dissy deg
 
A Model A will not survive at 40*
Many racers of modern-day engines shoot for 35-40 max

Be careful of what kind of degrees you are talking about: cam or crank

This would be a good place for Brent to chime in.
 
A Model A will not survive at 40*
Many racers of modern-day engines shoot for 35-40 max

Be careful of what kind of degrees you are talking about: cam or crank

This would be a good place for Brent to chime in.

It's all relative to the compression ratio as the burn rate speeds up as the ratio increases (similar to advancing the timing). A Model A at 4.22:1 is fine at 40 degrees BTDC at about 1800+ RPM on level ground in high gear. Loads make a difference as well so it can be pushed more in lower gears and a little less on steep inclines.

The great thing about these long stroke four bangers is with a little experience you can feel it in an instant when timing is too far retarded or too far advanced.
 
Humble opinion:

1. Mr. Vince Falter, in his Ford Barn centrifugal advanced Model B distributor article, mentions that the 15 degree initial crankshaft timing advance mentioned in Ford's March, April, & May 1933 article appeared to be an error & it should be 19 crankshaft degrees.

2. If one carefully measures the timing pin locations on a Model A timing cover vs. a Model B timing cover, one can clearly "experience" & actually "see" where the Model B timing pin is located 9-1/2 degrees BTDC (1/2 of 19 crankshaft degrees), on the timing gear cover as opposed the Ford mentioned 7-1/2 degrees BTDC, (1/2 of 15 crankshaft degrees as initial timing.

3. This means that when measured on the timing pin location circumferences, (with the center of this circle centered on the center of the timing gear), that the Model B timing pin at 9-1/2 degrees advanced is roughly 7/16" higher or further advanced than that of the Model A timing pin.

4. Mr. Falter also further "experiences" clamping the distributor's shaft in a vise, then rotates & advances the spring loaded centrifugal device on top to find that the rotation of the centrifugal advance Model B distributor advances a maximum of 8-1/2 degrees.

5. It may sound confusing to hear engine people mention the different crank degrees, crankshaft degrees, timing gear degrees, valve timing, ignition timing, distributor advance degrees; however, it is important to realize first that here in the U.S. all complete circles or one complete revolution will always have 360 degrees whether on a crankshaft, timing gear, or distributor.

6. Next, the crankshaft gear is 1/2 diameter of the timing gear; hence, when the crankshaft turns one revolution, (360 degrees), the timing gear & distributor turn 1/2 revolution or 180 degrees; hence the timing gear & distributor are always turning twice as fast, (double the rpms), as that of the crankshaft.

7. Then remember that this entire discussion is about the number one (1) spark plug firing at so many "crankshaft" degrees BTDC known as "ignition timing"; however, we are measuring "timing" on a timing gear & distributor that is turning twice as fast as the crankshaft.

8. Good thing engineers don't write cook books ....... we would all be eating grass because nobody could understand what they were trying to explain in the first place.

9. Anyway what Mr. Falter further explains is that because ignition timing degrees amounts are based on crankshaft revolution rpms which are twice that of distributor revolution rpms, his 8-1/2 degree distributor advance translates into 17 crankshaft degrees & when added to the initial Model B 19 crankshaft degrees, the Model B theoretically could advance at higher speeds to near 36 crankshaft degrees BTDC.

10. Even though the Model A was designed with an initial timing of 0 crankshaft degrees BTDC, & to advance to 40 crankshaft degrees BTDC, it was recommend to run with spark lever only 1/3 to 1/2 way down after starting which he tested to be about 13 - 20 crankshaft degrees BTDC. (Makes sense with lower Model A head compression).

11. The Model B came with a crank & when timing is correctly set at 19 "crankshaft" degrees BTDC, I have never witnessed the engine kicking back with a hand crank or starter.

12. However, if one buys one of these timing devices with curved degree markings near the crankshaft pulley, & mounted on the flywheel cover, if one sets the crankshaft timing at the 19 degree mark on this device & decides to crank the engine, with a Model b distributor .......................... please dial 911 first & notify the ambulance to bring an arm sling & trauma medication -- the engine will kick ferociously -- with these timing devices, the verified TDC mark on the crankshaft pulley has to be set at 9-1/2 degrees BTDC for correct "ignition" timing.

13. I was always advise not to allow a Model B distributor advance more than about 28 degrees at about 2700 rpm.

Hope this helps, especially if someone cranks an engine with a Model B distributor.
 
#6 may have been stated wrong. I think the distributor turns at 1/2 the crank speed. 2 turns on the crank = 1 turn of distributor? Ron W
 
Hi Ron,

You are a gentleman & are absolutely correct in that #6 needs to be corrected to 1/2.

Also received a very kind earlier short note from Mr. Tom Wesenberg at 5:40 a.m. referring to this same correction needed in paragraph #7.

Wife's car died & we bought new car last night -- after returning at 2:54 a.m. was brain dead -- thank goodness car search is over.

Rather than describing modifications to the two (2) above paragraphs, paragraphs #6 & #7, are rewritten as follows with the corrections in red:

"6. Next, the crankshaft gear is 1/2 diameter of the timing gear; hence, when the crankshaft turns one revolution, (360 degrees), the timing gear & distributor turn 1/2 revolution or 180 degrees; hence the timing gear & distributor are always turning 1/2 as fast, (1/2 the rpms), as that of the crankshaft.

7. Then remember that this entire discussion is about the number one (1) spark plug firing at so many "crankshaft" degrees BTDC known as "ignition timing"; however, we are measuring "timing" on a timing gear & distributor that is turning 1/2 as fast as the crankshaft."
 
Since my comment in post #7 has been largely ignored I suspect a clarification is needed.

If you follow Ford's instructions for timing the B distributor then yes, the INITIAL static timing will indeed be advanced 19 degrees. Ford follows with instructions to adjust (rotate) the upper plate "to compensate for different fuels and driving conditions"

The bottom line is the baseline is variable much like Bill will do by turning his Mallory when fine tuning, but the advance curve is still shown as a 14 degree range at specific engine speeds. The original question deals with the the distributor advance curve and range. The rest of this talk is moot in that regard.
 
With regard to post #15. My 1933 chev had an external adjustment to the static timing that was calibrated in "octane" settings.

The adjustment could be done by lifting the hood and making an adjustment outside and next to the distributor.

Marc
 
Funny, I was just thinking how handy it would be if the Model A had that. My cabriolet with a Brumfield head is very fussy about timing. Easy to run it too advanced, which is not good.
 
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