Continuing engine problem

[WHN]

I would check you cooling system out before pulling the engine.

Radiator, water pump, etc.

If the engine is as per factory spec's and seizing when it only gets really hot. Sounds to me like you have to keep it cool.

Also, what oil weight have you been using to break motor in?

Another idea, timing along with cooling problems, knocking?

Seizing only when very not, why is engine getting that hot?

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

To answer questions and suggestions by post # and name if I know it:

#5 Dick S: All bearings are factory spec. Crank end play was set by Bill Barlow, so no questions there. Timing gears are matched properly, but I will check this again next week when I pull the engine. Brakes are not too tight.

#6 Joel R: Ring gaps are all .020-.022.

#7 Dudley: See pix at the bottom of this post. The measurements I took may well bbe wrong. No crosshatch even at 1800 miles! (that photo below also).

#8 48fordnut: It will not turn over, perion, by hand or starter. It takes 30-45 minutes to cool down enough to turn.

#10 WHN: Things look good. See pix below. I didn't write down the temps when it seized, but it happens as soon as it's shut off.

#11 48fordnut: What is acft fild? Aircraft field?

#12 Big Hammer: If you are referring to the thread on the VFF, that is me.

#14 Herm: No crosshatch at 1800 miles. The valves seem to be on top. See pix below. I am unsure about those measurements. I need to get bore gauge on the cylinder. This morning the pistons measured 3.8720 at the bottom skirt; the sleeved cylinders were honed to 3.875 at rebuild 4000 miles ago. Portland Engine Rebuilders, who sleeved the block and did the honing told me this AM that it was honed for .003 clearance. I am not averse to getting a new radiator. At this point I'm trying to decide if I need to pull the engine and have it honed for greater clearance or replace the radiator. It seems that either or both may be necessary. What do you think?

#17 Rawhide: 1929

#18 Henry: Bearings are set to Ford specs, and the engine turns easily by hand when cold.

Your pistons are for sure to tight. .003 is not good, should be at least .004-50, not over .005.

We set ring gaps to .013 top, .011 middle, .009 bottom.

It also looks like Aluminum in the rod bearing babbitt, which won't hurt anything.

I never use pistons with out expansion slots!


Herm.

 

[colin1928]

Ray your on the right track measuring everything until you find that which is too tight
Here are some you have not posted
piston ring side clearance
piston ring back space
valve stem to guide
valve lifter to bore
camshaft journal to bore
and the list goes on but any of these can lock a hot engine

 

[mcorrell]

Pistols and bores look awful from the seizures. Maybe you could get by with new pistons and honing the bores for proper clearances. I'd check your radiator. Mine has one of the cheap 2 row radiators from the 70s. It will overheat easily when the ambient temp is over 80 degrees, so I usually drive in the mornings until I can install a 3 row radiator.
Engines typically see peak temperatures during a hot shutdown when heat soak occurs. If the piston clearances are too tight seizures occur like you are seeing. Good luck

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

 

[48fordnut]

700rpm . My Bad, , aircraft field. acft owners want to fly as cheaply as they did in the 50s,and 60s. When mechs made 1.50 2.00 an hour. You could buy flying planes for 800 to 1000 dollars. Same here.

 

[bogdonj]

Went through this issue with my rebuilt roadster engine. Would over heat unless I kept moving and had to watch when it idled. Luckily never ran it too far when it was getting hot. I suspected the Radiator to be fine because it didn't over heat before the engine rebuilt but now with a full rebuilt these engine run much hotter because they are tight. Took the Radiator to a well know old school shop and determined right away it was 60% blocked. Had him re-core it and installed it and no issues of it running hot. Even at idle it will run for days without over heating. Solved my problem! Hopefully you figure yours out soon! Good Luck!

 

[denniskliesen]

Your pistons are for sure to tight. .003 is not good, should be at least .004-50, not over .005.

We set ring gaps to .013 top, .011 middle, .009 bottom.

It also looks like Aluminum in the rod bearing babbitt, which won't hurt anything.

I never use pistons with out expansion slots!


Herm.

Herm, a couple things I noticed. All the dimples in your rods. It that from balancing? Do you do your own balancing? Also see you used the neoprene front main seal. Does it hold up longer than the rope seal? Kinda wish I had used that when I had mine apart, but it seems to spit less now after breaking in.

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Years ago, and through the end of the 1940's many of us used to hear stories where hundreds of poor, single car, Model A owners used to drive up to a Sears Store, drop off their worn out, oil leaking and oil burning, smoking Model A's, and after a few days hitch a ride back to Sears to pick them up with a very good totally "rebuilt" Model A engine.

This "Model A Maintenance" procedure was supposedly done by Model A owners almost as often as changing their Model A tires ........ and there were almost no "rebuilt" engine complaints afterwards.

Here within the past twenty (20) years of reading Model A Forum stories, and our changing from much needed and typical everyday "Model A Maintenance" ...... to a sideline hobby of "Model A Restoration" ..... we often hear that "rebuilt" Model A engines today often appear to be almost a total disaster.

In trying to assist other future Model A owners needing "rebuilt" Model A engines, anyone care to share their thoughts as to maybe, .......... Why is it like this today? LOL

 

[d.j. moordigian]

I agree with Herm about the pistons being tight. The pattern on the skirts look real odd,
NOT uniform. There also could be a problem with the "ledge" at the bottom of the bore,
being too sharp!

The ring groove depth may be to shallow which could cause the lack of cross hatch.

Ya,..you have trash in the rod bearings,..hopefully it's Aluminum..

You can run solid skirt piston,..BUT, you need to know how much "cam" is ground in
the pistons,...the more cam, the tighter the clearance. The reverse hold true,..less
cam, then you need MORE clearance..

YOU need to find an "engine builder" that understand all this AND MORE, to correct
your problem,..he needs to check things most have never head of or thought of !

I have $4,000-$5,000( probable more) in tools to measure areas of an engine..and
I've done this for almost 43 years. Herm and I are in the same boat..

One last question,...on the INSIDE of the piston, in the crown(the top) is there any
color (caramel), or is it still Aluminum color?

Dudley

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Herm, a couple things I noticed. All the dimples in your rods. It that from balancing? Do you do your own balancing? Also see you used the neoprene front main seal. Does it hold up longer than the rope seal? Kinda wish I had used that when I had mine apart, but it seems to spit less now after breaking in.

Yes, we do our own balancing. We drill, as I don't like grinding around Babbitt.

I don't know if they hold up longer, I haven't had anybody bring either back. But I think the neoprene runs cleaner.

Thanks,

Herm.

 

[Jacksonlll]

On the flow test, this video shows how I do it. I think I could set it up without removing the rad from the car. Hope to try that soon. If you can find a high flowing water source, it would be much easier, but I tried the output from two garden hoses and that is not near enough water. You need about 36 GPM and that is hard to find. Maybe at a fire house.
Anyway, keep the top tank full while you measure the water rate out of the bottom. The bucket and stop watch work pretty well after you average a couple of runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0O4VmLfo7I&index=21&list=PLhL36Rc6o5MI5gsZreCrIa0r_fFQcz4R0
Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

 

[700rpm]

I agree with Herm about the pistons being tight. The pattern on the skirts look real odd,
NOT uniform. There also could be a problem with the "ledge" at the bottom of the bore,
being too sharp!

The ring groove depth may be to shallow which could cause the lack of cross hatch.

Ya,..you have trash in the rod bearings,..hopefully it's Aluminum..

You can run solid skirt piston,..BUT, you need to know how much "cam" is ground in
the pistons,...the more cam, the tighter the clearance. The reverse hold true,..less
cam, then you need MORE clearance..

YOU need to find an "engine builder" that understand all this AND MORE, to correct
your problem,..he needs to check things most have never head of or thought of !

I have $4,000-$5,000( probable more) in tools to measure areas of an engine..and
I've done this for almost 43 years. Herm and I are in the same boat..

One last question,...on the INSIDE of the piston, in the crown(the top) is there any
color (caramel), or is it still Aluminum color?

Dudley

Dudley,

The bottom edge of the sleeves does seem sharp.

How does the ring depth affect the crosshatch?

The rod bearings are good; some of what you're seeing in the pix is just some shop handling debris, since cleaned off. There is no metal debris present, nor was there any in the oil, pan, or dipper tray when I dropped the pan.

I don't understand what you are referring to on the "cam" in regard to pistons.

The shop that did the sleeves and honing is Portland Engine Rebuilders, well respected and reputable. They confirmed yesterday that the cylinders were honed to 3.875 and the pistons fitted to .003. This may be the problem. They measured the pistons yesterday also, and they still read 3.8720.

The inside tops of the pistons are aluminum with no discoloring of any sort.

I have also ordered a new Brassworks radiator. As long as I'm spending money, I might as well spend it all!

 

[700rpm]

On the flow test, this video shows how I do it. I think I could set it up without removing the rad from the car. Hope to try that soon. If you can find a high flowing water source, it would be much easier, but I tried the output from two garden hoses and that is not near enough water. You need about 36 GPM and that is hard to find. Maybe at a fire house.
Anyway, keep the top tank full while you measure the water rate out of the bottom. The bucket and stop watch work pretty well after you average a couple of runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0O4VmLfo7I&index=21&list=PLhL36Rc6o5MI5gsZreCrIa0r_fFQcz4R0
Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

Jackson, thanks for the info. A commenter on the video mentioned oxalic acid and edtm (whatzat?) and vinegar. Have you had a success with these?

I ordered a new Brassworks radiator today, but I may clean out my existing and keep it as a spare.

 

[denniskliesen]

Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

You're kidding, right? Can't run 45mph for 10 minutes? Unbelieveable...

 

[Jacksonlll]

You can clean out the tubes with chemicals and stuff if there is flow in the tubes. A plugged tube will not be affected by anything in the coolant running by it. You need mechanical cleaning and Very few shops will tackle the job of taking that top tank off.
Good move on the new core.

 

[d.j. moordigian]

Dudley,

The bottom edge of the sleeves does seem sharp.

How does the ring depth affect the crosshatch?

The rod bearings are good; some of what you're seeing in the pix is just some shop handling debris, since cleaned off. There is no metal debris present, nor was there any in the oil, pan, or dipper tray when I dropped the pan.

I don't understand what you are referring to on the "cam" in regard to pistons.

The shop that did the sleeves and honing is Portland Engine Rebuilders, well respected and reputable. They confirmed yesterday that the cylinders were honed to 3.875 and the pistons fitted to .003. This may be the problem. They measured the pistons yesterday also, and they still read 3.8720.

The inside tops of the pistons are aluminum with no discoloring of any sort.

I have also ordered a new Brassworks radiator. As long as I'm spending money, I might as well spend it all!

1. Break the edges with some emery cloth,...no sharp edges..

2. Some rings are wider than others (for the depth of the grooves), IF the
ring does not rest below the land when you push it in the land,..it will put
excessive pressure on the cylinder walls,..make sense?

3. "cam in the piston",....Pistons are not round(more like an egg),..smaller
near the pin bosses. When I started out building race engines, the pistons
had very little cam and the clearance was in the .008"-.009" range,..to keep
them from sticking. They started putting MORE cam in the pistons and now
the clearance is in the .0025"- .0035" range. That will seal-up the holes
better and not "barrel face" the rings from the rocking motion on the pistons.

4. Heat and the radiator,..the inside of the pistons,...Best guess,..since there
is no color on the inside of the pistons(that's heat),..your problem could just
be that the pistons were set too tight in the holes,..I'd put more clearance
in the cylinders. BTW,..the "color, caramel" is oil that has stained the inside
of the piston,..when the piston is running at optimum temperature,..I look
for this when I freshen an engine..

Dudley

 

[FrankWest]

About 60 years ago, in our rural area, I remember many vehicle owners "successfully" performing their own engine rebuilds.

After continuing to read Model A Forum messages about all of the bum Model A engine rebuilds which are forever failing over the past 20 years, I think we are experiencing an era where we have only a very, very, few Model A engine re-builders that actually "know" what they are doing.

Or do we have hundreds of "Scrooge" type Model A owners looking for cheap, cheap, cheap rebuilds from guys who are not even qualified to pump air in bicycle tires?

H.L. is very wise...
I keep reading about newly rebuilt engines that are running badly and often wondered why. One case in particular..Aguy had his v8 rebuilt and it ran perfectly on the engine stand but after installing it in his ear it didn't have enough power to even move the car!
Great rebuild!!

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Actual re-built Model A engine experiences from 60 years ago compared to reading Model A Forum Post for the past 20+ years:

Similarly, when we observe fine vintage furniture from 100 years ago built with hand tools, vintage houses and window sashes built 100 years ago with hand tools, and actual hand writings of the last century, one can begin to see a noticeable difference in developed hand and eye coordination, talent, and most importantly, a sense of pride and a standard of care.

Appears today, many are bringing Model A engines to guys with five (5) thumbs who write notes that resemble a ball point pen attached to a chicken's leg while getting its neck wrung.

Just be careful ...... and do not be surprised if you hand him a hand saw and a hand plane and ask him to build a table ...... like your re-built Model A engine ..... it could resemble careless chain saw type rough carpentry.

 

[FrankWest]

I know nothing about engine rebuilding, but know watchmaking. Any well running watch or clock mechanism, is one that is not tightly bound, but a movement with a little slop so that it will not freeze up and become bound under force. I would imagine that fitting the piston/cylinder walls and piston rings, must be carefully fit so as not to bind up yet provide a proper vacuum for the engine to run..Seems like an almost impossible task..Much much more than just replacing old parts with new ones.

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Frank,

Per your #39 mentioned precise watch adjustments, in our rural area, Babbitt bearings were properly adjusted without thickness gauges from the 1820's on steam boats until the 1950's, all without today's so-called hi-tech "Plasti-Gage".

That's about 230 years of adding and removing shims until "no" up & down bearing movement was felt; but easy movement from side to side experienced ..... just one (1) age old method always taught by our local engine re-builders because it always worked.

A constantly flowing oil film is not only required for lubrication, but also for cooling metal to metal frictional movement.

"Too tight" has always caused two (2) types of many past Model A mechanical failures"

"Too tight" to pay for qualified professional engine re-building services is usually the most common one.