Color Confusion

DUNN1929

DUNN1929

Member
We are trying to pick a color for our 1929 Town Sedan. We want it to be accurate for our year and body style. We have three books with three different color charts.
We have the MAFCA paint and finish guide (3rd edition).
Model A restoration guidelines & judging standards. (2011)
The Ford Model A "As Henry Built it"

Which chart should we be using????
 
I would go with the JS's as it's been revised (2011) and is correct as of that date. The Paint and Finish Guide certainly helps to see what the colors are and to help decide what you like. The Chart used in Blue Ribbon is in the JS's Book.
 
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I know of 2 '29 Town Sedans that are ALL black. Could that possibly have been original?? I don't know any history of the 2 cars. Bill W.
 
The JS and MAFCA Guide list all the same combinations except Dawn Gray & Black which is listed in the Guide. If you are not building a points car then I would go with one of the combinations listed in either list. Any of the color chips in the Guide or on the web are POOR at best.

We are in the process of rebuilding a 1929 Murray Town Sedan from the frame up. What I did was go to the local auto paint supply house and had them mix a 1/2 pint of each of the colors we thought we might want to paint the car. I shot some paint on squares of sheet metal so we had nice large paint "chips". Will cost between $50 to $125 depending on how many colors you want. I think it is well worth the money before you spend BIG bucks on the final paint job. You can get a paint code list on this web site: http://www.goldcoastmodela.com/techtips/Paintcodes.html. This site has the DuPont & PPG codes. There is another site, I don't rember the address, that has the Martin-Senior numbers.
Again, if you are not building a points car then pick a 1929 combination that suits your eye and go with it.
Ed
P.S. We decided on Vagabond Green & Rock Moss Green.
 
BILL WILLIAMSON said:
I know of 2 '29 Town Sedans that are ALL black. Could that possibly have been original?? I don't know any history of the 2 cars. Bill W.
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Bill, Black [ Coach] with Carmen Red stripe was available on Canadian assembled closed cars in 1929.
Also Andalusite Blue ;Kewanee Green; Mandalay Green; Richelieu Blue, which all were used at different periods throughout 1929 on Sedans.
 
one way to find the right color, if you are going to paint it the same color it was from the factory. Is to take the gas tank or some other part that has the original paint on it that was not in the light much. On our original 30 Townsedan I took the gas tank to the paint store they used the computer to get the right color from the back of the tank. The color was right on.
 
Ed Wendell said:
The JS and MAFCA Guide list all the same combinations except Dawn Gray & Black which is listed in the Guide. If you are not building a points car then I would go with one of the combinations listed in either list. Any of the color chips in the Guide or on the web are POOR at best.
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Regarding colors or color tones online or on the computer I agree 100%. However it sounds like you are assuming the paint formulas being commonly shared today are more accurate than the color chips in the MAFCA paint guide. That would not be a wise assumption.
 
Marco I have been waiting all day for a response from you as I was sure you would like to respond to Ed's post.
I was also wondering if you knew why the paint colors that owners claim are accurite seem to be so different from the chips in the guide?

For example the Niagara Blue Light always looks Turquoise with the Andalusite Blue.
 
First off you need to be viewing the color chips with a neutral color to surround the chip in the book. The white surround in the book throws your eyes WAY off.

Second you need to look at the chips in different light as some colors have a gross difference if you are in direct sunlight or in shade.

The lombard blue is a great example. In the sun it looks very blue, but in the shade it is not far off from a black (if it is done properly).

I have a great, but small bit of original Lombard blue I found on my door. It was behind some felt and did not have much exposure to air. When I did my best to compare the colors to what the paint handbook had in the chips they were real close. A major admission, I am far from trained in knowing colors and matching. Knowing colors is something few are truly good at and you must be practiced.

Now the era formula for Lombard (hopefully I am remembering right it has been years) was 2 blues, a green and a black. Yes, lombard blue will have a slight green undertone if you figure out how to look at it. The current PPG Concept formula has the 2 blues, green and black, but they ruin it with a dash of white. I have been kicking myself for letting them add in the white as that lightened it up.

So do not trust the mix that the dealer will give you as being correct.

I called PPG and they told me what the original tint formula was back in the 30's and they told me the formula they use today. I did not have to lie about who I was, they were very forward in talking with me.

Getting the color right is not an easy job and not something a lot of people know enough to figure it out on the first try. I had some great help and I barely got something that is not correct, but close enough for my budget. Paint is not cheap!!
Keep in mind I bought paint online from company that is well known. They claimed they could get it right including the muddiness found in the less refined tints of the 30's. They did not get the color right and something was wrong with the tints causing white speckles.

Now you have my experience with paint color. Hope it helps a bit.
 
Here is vagabond green and rock moss green. Car was originally this color. I painted it with PPG (then Ditzler) lacquer in 1964 and still looks good if you look past the worn edges. I suppose the colors have changed a bit over the years. It is a pleasing combination.
 

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I need to look at my color chips again during the day. With that said, the pigments of the day left limited options and in general the colors were "muddy". Most of the blues leaned toward green. Andalusite was an exception and had a strong red (purple) hue. That does have an impact on how the Niagara is visualized due to the contrasting tones or hues between the two colors.

There are many reasons common adaptations don't match the original and some I've talked about in the past. The bottom line is that with every reformulation of paint changes both the tints as well as the impact of those tints. Regardless of what folks say, technology has not yet reached the level to be able to "create" a formula from scratch via electronics. To actually match a color to the eye requires human intervention and even then is limited to the talents and abilities of that particular "human". If somebody tells me "the formula was created in PPG's (or Dupont's, ect.) lab", all that does is offer most folks security but make me apprehensive. I've just seen too much of it all over the last three-plus decades.

Most folks can't see the nuances of color (or other unrelated details), nor do they have the interest in doing so. What they want and need is simple assurance that what they have or do is "right". That is simply human nature and normal. The present formulas, regardless of source, supply that much needed assurance for piece of mind. Accuracy is another story!
 
I have posted this picture in the past. I shows the SAME paint chip twice. The picture on the left is with the white background of the paint chip book. The one on the right has a dark black background surrounding the SAME paint chip. The camera acts similar to your eyes. It will close the iris when there is a white background and open it when there is a black background. The result is the paint chip looks almost black when surrounded by white and looks too light when surrounded by white. It is best to use a medium gray background.

Bob
paintchips.jpg
 
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