Catastrophic Failure?

5wcoupe

5wcoupe

Junior Member
I have searched the forum to see if there is a situation like this but I can't find anything. You guys please forgive me if I am starting a new thread when I shouldn't.

This involves my 1932, 5 window coupe 100% as original except for the engine, a 21 stud LB motor I think a '36. I sent the motor to H&H in California and had it bored, stroked, Scat crank, domed pistons, rods, balanced, mild Isky cam, all the high dollar stuff they could do. It has Eddie Meyer heads and intake with two Stromberg 97s. Reds headers.

The car has about 200 miles since this build and I was absolutely tickled with the way it ran. It had the right sound and would go like hell but I never abused it.

Last week I started the car cold and everything was normal. It always runs rough for a few seconds and I just let it idle until it feels good. This time it was going O.K. when it stopped suddenly. I didn't hear anything unusual. When I tried to restart, the starter would only turn the engine a few degrees and stop. I knew the battery was good and the starter switch was new. I jumpered a battery directly to the starter and it was the same. This was a re-pop starter that H&H put in so I thought it had failed. I took one of my good original starters and had it rewound "hi torque" thinking the re-pop starter couldn't handle the high compression. That wasn't it. The new starter only bumps the engine a few degrees and stops. Its almost as if the engine is trying to seize. I pulled the plugs and tried to turn the engine over with a socket on the crank nut but that only torqued the nut and did not turn it over.

I raised the rear wheels, put the transmission in high and turned a rear wheel. the ****** turned but the engine did not move!! It's like the clutch was not there. I tried the pedal and all looks normal. It's like there is a disconnect between the flywheel and the transmission.

Could something come loose in the clutch assembly to seize the engine and yet the ****** will turn over?

I have a bad feeling that I am going to have to pull the engine unless one of you guys with a lot more time-in-grade than me can shed some light on this.

Sorry this post is so long but I wanted to get it all out there. Please help!
 
Can you remove the clutch inspection plate and have someone look to see if the flywheel is turning with the trans? Or clutch pressure plate turning?
Martin.
 
You did have just one wheel off the floor when the transmission turned? If so, I would remove the inspection cover at top of the transmission bell, or the starter, and observe the flywheel while someone turned the rear wheel. If the flywheel turns and engine doesn't, the flywheel bolts or the crank has give up.
 
Like 40cpe said, if both wheels are raised you may just be turning the spider gears in the rear end.
 
I'm not sure which clutch you have but a broken flyweight might stop the rotation of the wheel & cover but I couldn't be certain. If the engine won't rotate with the clutch released, you could see if the drive train rotates with the clutch released eliminating the transmission & drivetrain from suspicion. If it is still stuck, then it's time to pull it.
 
There had to be some unusual noise if the engine was abruptly stopped by some part failure in either the drive line or the engine. That heavy flywheel has a lot of inertia.

Does the starter turn the engine in successive amounts as it is engaged? By successive amount, does it turn a few degrees further each time the starter engages or is the rotation back and forth over the same position?

Can you roll the car with gearbox in neutral? Can you roll the car with any gear engaged?

If the car won't roll in either case, something is jammed in the drive line, but this doesn't sound reasonable if the car was sitting still and idling when the failure occurred.
There are two ways to look at the first part of the drive train: first, pull the floorboards and the inspection plate and look at the clutch/flywheel/driven disk and see if it all looks normal. Possibilities are driven disk with the facing peeled off and jammed, or some part of the clutch coming off and jamming in the bell housing. Seems like either of those things would make a big noise.

Second, can the transmission be shifted into all four positions (takes some jiggling of the gear lever if the car is sitting still)

Another possibility is the trans jammed in two gears at once, which will lock up the transmission. Also a big noise if it happened with the engine running. The transmission shift detent balls interlock the forks to prevent this from happening. However, pushing the clutch in should allow the engine to turn over if the trans has failed. You can easily take the top off the transmission to look at the internals.

I'm assuming in the above comments that this event occurred with the car sitting still.

If you can roll the car with it in gear and the engine doesn't turn, then the center of the driven disk has sheared its rivets or the input shaft has broken. With either of these, the starter should be able to turn the engine.

If you run through that drive line stuff with no luck, then it sounds like an internal engine failure of some sort. Lots of possibilities there, like a lubrication failure, or clearance/fit up problem, no oil or oil pump fail. You can start down that road by pulling the heads and checking the bores and piston motion, check all the valves . I'd think that any loose internals would cause a noise when the engine stopped, so that leaves something that causes a lot of friction inside the engine.

Perhaps a valve has dropped and gotten bent, leaving a little rotation back and forth, then jamming. Try looking in the plug holes with a strong light and seeing if anything unusual shows up, also check the plug electrodes to see if there is any damage to them.

By all means call the engine builder to get their take on it.

This is a curious case, please keep us posted.

John
 
Sounds like my Friend "37 Coupe" experience with a newly overhauled engine, ran for a few miles then nearly froze up. I think it was GM told him to get some MMO around the valve guides, let it soak for a while then try it. After a lot of smoke and rough running it started running like new and has ever since. In your case, since it is froze, I would pull the intake manifold and soak the valves stems with MMO give it a few hrs. then keep trying to turn the crank with a breaker bar. Don't chance striping a starter gear or flywheel gear. Keep up that cycle for a couple of days, maybe it will work, sometimes the simple things work best.
 
Had a similar experience once. The starter support bracket had broken and the angle of the starter causer the flywheel gear to go lopsided on the flywheel wedging against the bell housing and stopping the engine from turning.
By removing the pan and using a piece of wooden dowel and a hammer I was able to tap the ring back into place and get it going. That was a year ago and I have not had any further problems with it.
Again, call H&H before proceeding...
 
Here's the next chapter in this dissapointing story.

First, I should have remembered my days as a kid with a $15 Model A cutdown that never seemed to have enough battery to turn the starter over. I would jack up ONE rear wheel and turn it over in high or second and get it started. 40 CPE and JSeery picked that up 'cause I jacked the whole rear end up and the spiders turned but never got to the transmission. There is nothing wrong with the drive line. This morning I just put the car in high with the wheels down (plugs out) and tried to roll it. IT'S STUCK!

I looked in the plug holes with a bore scope. What I could see looked normal. I weighed my options and decided I would remove the intake manifold. I really expected to see what my Daddy would call a "swallered valve".

Everything that can be seen with the manifold off looks normal. The valve stems are in the center of the springs and what I can see through the induction ports in the block looks O.K. There do not appear to be cracks that I can see.

I suppose the next step should be to drop the pan unless someone has an easier suggestion. I appreciate anything you have to offer.

I have a real bad feeling that one of those expensive rods is wedged between the crank and the block. When the engine siezed it was running at idle with the throttle out just enough to let it run smooth. The car has duals with smitty glass pacs so it is a little noisey. I was starting a car next to the '32 when it stopped so if it made any noise I didn't hear it. If I'm lucky the slow engine speed may have kept the damage to a minimum.
 
H&H? Hope this thread turns out better than some others I have heard about. Hope fully not a major problem. Good luck with it, hope this works out well for you.
 
This Ain't Good.

I just drained the oil. I put a strong magnet in a little zip lock bag and held it in the stream of oil as it ran from the pan. There are numerous shiny ferrous chunks and slivers stuck to the bag. I tried to attach a pic.
To ZZlegend, Yes H&H.
 

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Very sorry to say that with objects like that floating-around freely in the lube and passages, that engine definitely needs to come out, if for no other reason than to properly clean-up the shrapnel throughout the engine. Please keep us informed. DD
 
I just saw some new posts here on the Barn from "Capitan Insano" who seems to be from H&H. Perhaps he has some information/response?
 
@5wcoupe

I'm sick to my stomach just following the post, pictures & problems....looks as if I was reading a page from my life and a Dodge Van I had several years back (turned out to be a broken rod cap bolt AND why now on EVERY engine I rebuild I buy NEW bolts, studs, nuts etc etc etc because you don't know who or how many times they have been tightened, over tightened or stretched)!!! I hope the best for you and your situation!!!
 
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