Car will not start

NeillB

NeillB

Junior Member
Hopefully this is a simple fix.. I was driving my 1929 model A when the engine started to skip I could tell it was loosing power electrical problem not a fuel problem I pulled over and the car died would not start again.
towed it home. I figured it was the condensor had failed that was way I had no spark changed condensor no help still no spark, ck for power at the coil no power either, during my trouble shooting I noticed that the headlights and the dash light, and the brake lights do not work as well and have no power All these lights had worked before I had not had any issues with the electrical before the engine stoped running.( starter is working fine )
I was thinking it might be the AMP meter or the ingition switch went bad or an oped or broken wire somewhere. I was just wondering if anyone has any other ideas or quick things that I can look for I plan on working on it tonight.
thanks.
 
First make sure you have good battery voltage at the starter main battery wire.
the yellow wire at the starter feeds the terminal junct box. Some cars have a starter mounted fuse so ck that
Ck for power at both terminal box wing nuts if no power at either ck the connections on the yellow wire from starter to junct box. If you have power at one wing nut ck the ammeter connections, junct box connections or for a bad ammeter.

see diagram
 

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This is my generic no spark troubleshooting list,

No Spark
Some possibilities are:
1.Blown or defective fuse (use of a fuse is an aftermarket item)
2.Bad connections at ammeter, or ammeter itself (t0 find out put a jumper wire from one post of the terminal box to the other to take the ammeter out of the circuit temporarily)
3.Bad ignition switch and/or cable, or loose cable connection at switch.
4.Loose or broken wires at bottom of coil
5.Loose or broken wires inside terminal box
6.Loose, bare or broken pigtail wire under distributor plate, or wire grounding to plate or distributor body
7.Points not opening, or point arm grounding to cam due to worn rubbing block
8.Worn electrode in underside of distributor cap
9.Loose or broken high tension wire from coil to cap
10.Condenser burned out or grounding (some condensers are too long and can touch the distributor body inside)
11.Weak coil
12.Rotor not turning due to loose cam screw or bad timing gear.


Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings).
Start at the fuse block, you should have voltage on both sides of the fuse. If you only have voltage on one side, replace the fuse or fuse block.

Now with voltage on both sides of the fuse, move up to the junction box. There should be voltage at both terminals. If voltage is present only on one side the problem is at the ampmeter and you should Jumper the ampmeter for now.
You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not,
remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.

Open the points with a piece of paper and remove the condenser. Turn the key on and you should have voltage at the points.
Replace the condenser and you should still have voltage.

If voltage is missing, remove the top plate and check for voltage on the bottom plate.

Check is the connector from the ignition switch screwed in to far? Do you have voltage on the wire to the upper plate?

Is this wire shorting to ground or broken?

Remove the paper from the points and see that the points are closed. You should not have 0 volts at the points. If not,
The points are dirty or the distributor is not grounded well to the engine.
145098
 
"Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings)."

How does the bulb give a false reading?:confused:

If it lights bright, you have voltage. If it doesn't light you have no voltage. Always test the light first to be sure the bulb isn't burned out. I find a test light to be a handy inexpensive tool.


 
Hi Neil,

This is for the many DIY guys who often ask for simple Model A electrical help.

Many of us learned the hard way & later found out that there were methods for diagnosing a Model A electrical problem, a residential, or any other electrical problem.

If one does not have a multi-meter or test lamp, please get one -- Wal-Mart has inexpensive yellow GE multi-meters -- the first electrical current episode will not be one's last Model A electrical rodeo.

So many non-electricians hear about electrons, protons, X-ray, volts, atoms, amps, ohms, & their brains turn into scrambled eggs when something as simple as Model A headlights quit working; however, electricity can be thought of in a very simple manner as described in many electrical wiring books printed in the 1930's.

Electricity flows in wires just like water flows in pipes. Continuity is the key from point A to point B. Then one has only two (2) conductors or pipes to check for continuity of flow: (+) & (-) between points A & B.

Switches & fuses are like water faucets & water valves -- they can stop the flow of water if one turns the handle -- electrical switches use the same water flow terminology -- "OFF" & "ON" -- nothing really mysterious. One's ignition switch & light switch uses the same "OFF" & "ON" terminology when turning same.

If one has a broken water pipe, between point A & B, water never reaches point B in sufficient quantity -- if one has an improper electrical connection or broken wire between point A & B, electricity never reaches point B in sufficient quantity -- it is just that simple.

Just obtain a multi-meter & start at your battery for a voltage reading between (+) & (-) ...... if the multi-meter indicates the battery is dead, one will get the same dead reading at one's lights; if the multi-meter indicates that the battery is OK, & the tail lights for example do not operate, the problem is similar to having a broken (+) water pipe or a broken (-) water pipe. Check along the length of the wires for broken wires or worn out insulation, & check to clean rust and/or corrosion at (+) & (-) connections to obtain continuity of flow.

Many people try to repair Model A's like Quack Doctors. For example, if a patient is not feeling well, the Quack Doctor performs a heart transplant, a kidney transplant, a lung transplant, & lastly by trying to use his simple thermometer, the Quack Doctor found out that the patient has a mild fever & a simple aspirin was all that was needed.

Get a multi-meter which is one's thermometer, look at a wiring diagram which can distinguish proper (+) & (-) routing, & quit wasting time & money transplanting coils, batteries, wires, transplanting condensers, & ammeters. Usually after all of the transplants & fiddling, without diagnosis, the real problem was never found.

Sincerely hope this can help somebody think about their Model A electrical system in a positive or negative manner. LOL
 
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I'm with Tom. The presence of voltage is nice to know but how about current?
High Z connections can be missed with a VM. As an example as I have shown customers while using a digital VM, with one probe on B- grab the other probe with one hand and touch the B+ with the other....Yep you'll read full battery voltage. Even thru' two people!
An analog will not as you have to drive the movement.

I also agree replacing parts compounds the problem and finding solutions become murkier.
 
the best tutorial I have read in working under the hood in nearly 50 years. I'm not a sparktrician by any stretch but this is great stuff. Thanks, TB
 
An old fashion "analog" meter, like a Simpson 260 work the best on a Model A. The low cost "digital" meters give false readings with the electrical noise present on the Model A.

Marc
 
Might add that the inexpensive yellow Wal-Mart GE multi-meter mentioned in #7 above is a very durable analog type multi-meter for checking AC, DC, Ohms, etc.

In my humble opinion, digital multi-meters might be good enough for checking 20 year old corroded flash light batteries & sun dials located under large live oak trees. LOL
 
I use a testlight all the time...
When checking small parasitic draws on modern stuff it can be a little tricky with a dim bulb, but the model A does not usually present that problem.
Cking for battery voltage with it is a no brainer and easy for anyone to do.
I really like my power probe with a digital readout works great on the A.
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
"Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings)."

How does the bulb give a false reading?:confused:

If it lights bright, you have voltage. If it doesn't light you have no voltage. Always test the light first to be sure the bulb isn't burned out. I find a test light to be a handy inexpensive tool.
Click to expand...

How bright is bright? Inside a darken garage, shade, bright sunshine. A meter of any kind with, the engine not running, after all that is what we are troubleshooting, will give you the voltage and we are looking for the battery voltage. How does a light bulb tell you many volts the battery has? If you have a voltage drop due to a poor connection how bright will the bulb be?

Can a trouble light be used, of course! It is my belief that a meter is better when trouble shooting electrical problems on a non running car.
 
I'm sure you've checked the fuse, if you have one, but I've had fuses burn out down by an end where it couldn't readily be seen. Might try changing the fuse rather than just eyeballing it--again, if you have one.
 
FWIW: Electrical shop testing safety No-No's:

I knew one rural shade tree mechanic years ago who used his own version of a test lamp.

It was an old brown, ragged, cloth covered, twisted wire lamp chord which was plugged into his ungrounded knob & tube wired 110V electrical outlet, used in combination with a 75 Watt bulb. Grounded outlets or ground-fault outlets were not even heard of back then.

When it rained his bare earth shop floor got wet. The old folks used to warn others that if it rained, don't go in his shop when he is testing electrical items.

Fortunately, he was extremely lucky -- he never got shocked & much later, poor soul died of old age.
 
thanks for all the help and advice I am planning on working on this tonight I will follow up with what I find.

thanks, everyone Neill
 
JBill said:
I'm sure you've checked the fuse, if you have one, but I've had fuses burn out down by an end where it couldn't readily be seen. Might try changing the fuse rather than just eyeballing it--again, if you have one.
Click to expand...

How about checking across the fuse with the volt meter. If the voltage is present at one end and not the other you have found the problem. If the voltage is not at either end of the fuse you know to look elsewhere (maybe check it again later).

Charlie Stephens
 
marc hildebrant said:
An old fashion "analog" meter, like a Simpson 260 work the best on a Model A. The low cost "digital" meters give false readings with the electrical noise present on the Model A.

Marc
Click to expand...
Indeed but within the context of the question a digital will work fine as the car is generating no RF (it's not running). Not trying to be snarky but taking an opportunity. I often see analog VMs in second hand stores and I would take Marc's advice. I've seem Tripletts and Simpsons for as little as $20.00.
 
:DNeill Just got a friends newly acquired 30 coupe up and running. It was a mess. He had torn into the dizzy and carb so I had to start from scratch rebuilding both. Got it fired up and ran smooth as glass for about 30 minutes. he came to pick it up and put it in his car trailer. NO GO. Pulled the coil wire and no spark. Checked the points and spark was fine. Checked with a club member and we both thought the key switch was worth a check. Pulled the dash and sure enough one of the terminals was loose as hell with the wrong length of screw. found the correct length and a small washer and realized one of the ammeter terminal was badly crimped. Fixed that and varoooom she fired right up. Runs sweet. Was never so glad to put a car in a trailer and watch it sail down the road.
 
If one is not used to finding Model A electrical problems, and/or if one has a slight case of CRS, one (1) simple, quick way is to begin diagnosing electrical problems is first make a Xerox copy of a Model A wiring diagram & next get a yellow marker.

1. Start at the battery (+) & (-) posts for a reading on the multi-meter needle. If good, mark entire battery yellow with a yellow marker.

2. Check battery ground post to frame; & battery ground post to engine; & if ground is good, mark the battery ground cable on the diagram in yellow meaning this wire is also OK.

3. Go next to the starter & if battery cable to starter is OK, mark it in yellow.

3. From the starter post branch out on different paths along wire(s) routes & all routes that are OK, mark these Xerox indicated wires in yellow.

4. This is just as simple as planning & choosing routes to deliver Christmas presents to cousins.

5. A yellow mark on your diagram's wire means you do not have to keep checking the same wire(s) over & over; i. e, with your marked wiring diagram, you can "see" where you have been ...... & you know where you are systematically going next.

6. Some may prefer to bounce around for days disconnecting & connecting wires & going in circles changing out distributors, coils, & condensers ........... if having fun, go for it.

Just hopes this can help one day.
 
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