Can't get engine started after changing timing gear

[Ed in Maine]

Are you sure that you didn't slip the fuel line brass seal too far in up the fuel line so the end of the fuel line is up against the inside for carb when you were changing all those carbs? Ed

 

[Rob Doe]

Philcobill, why did you change the timing gear? What made you come to the conclusion that you needed to do that?

And, did all items you listed in your initial post, 1 - 12 occur after you dismantled the front of the car and installed a new timing gear? None took place before?

My car has a high compression head on it. I can pull the #1 spark plug and shine a light into the cylinder and see the important part of the piston in its cylinder, perhaps it's not possible on a stock head, but I think it is. It is easy to see that the piston is at top dead center on my car. I suggest you try looking directly at that small part of the piston and cylinder when the timing pin is in the dimple. If you miss your dimple while hand cranking, put the car in third gear and use the front right wheel to adjust it until the pin is all the way seated. Roll the car back, then come forward through #1, TDC again.

I may be confused, but I believe you should look at the valves in #1 cylinder and that they should both be closed at #1, TDC. If the in-cylinder timing is correct, then take the necessary precautions to protect yourself, car out of gear, all 4 plugs out of the cylinders, etc. ground the #1 plug and see if it sparks as you crank the engine through top dead center. (key on)


As an afterthought, I also have a $20 endoscope/bore-scope that works on my cell phone that comes in real handy for looking in a cylinder or into the throat of a carb to see if the jets are leaking fuel at the bottom.

 

[john charlton]

I have had this identical problem and did all what you have done . It finally turned to be a faulty ampmeter which had an intermittent open circuit and sometimes voltage drop across it . A roadside breakdown was cured by dropping the dash and connecting both ampmeter wires to the same terminal , an instant fix . The ampmeter was replaced later . The meter was an older USA unit not offshore . We had been working on the car with no electrical involvement so just a coincidence maybe the same with you . A quick job to jump the meter give it a whirl .

John in heavy rain Suffolk County England .

 

[jg61hawk]

Well now if others are looking past the timing (as I think I did) I'll go a little further: First starting fluid, then check plugs against a ground like head while cranking, then as John says above just jump the two terminals together on the junction box won't hurt a thing, and then I would try this to POSSIBLY bypass the condenser as was posted elsewhere by Jackson:"The easiest way is using jumpers. A lot of people mount a condenser on the fire wall, that grounds it, then an alligator clip to the pass. side of coil." A crap condenser will cause backfire, intermittent spark ....or change the condenser.

 

[philcobill]

Something with your new timing gear doesn't sound right. Why did you change it?? Was something else starting to go south leading you to change the timing gear?? Compare the old one to the new one. Any differences?? Do you have a nice blue spark out of the coil when cranking the engine?? The spark may look good when flicking the points but cranking the starter might be dropping the voltage too much to provide sufficient spark.
Good gas??

I changed the timing gear because the metal spindle part separated from the fiber outer part.



Yes, the spark looks good.

 

[philcobill]

One other thing. Do you have good fuel flow into the carburetor??

I am using the non-ethanol gas 90 octane sold by the local service stations. I am not using the regular ethanol gas.

 

[philcobill]

I asked this to help without having to remove front cover again. Tooth mis-alignment will affect compression.

70# is high. I think too high for a stock engine/cylinder head.

Is there a chance that the crank was turned while the original gear was off, before the new one was put on ?

There were some gears quite awhile ago with the dimple in the wrong position.

Try removing the sparklers and confirm TDC in #1 with the dimple in place. You see feel the piston top with a piece of wire stuck in the hole at an angle. Just be sure to not feel a valve moving instead.[ that has happened]

Great suggestions!


Yes, the cylinder head is made of aluminum. I am not sure what is the compression ratio, but it is certainly higher than the stock 4.22 to 1, perhaps it is about 5.5 or 6 to one.

 

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good afternoon....The condenser is a good suggestion...also the little fuse holder on the side of the starter...if it is an older one, can have a loose rivet which will cause the backfire and such also if the little fuse holder has weakened...the same problem can result...Ernie in Arizona

 

[philcobill]

Okay, there is quite a bit to digest here. Everyone here has made some wonderful suggestions.

I will attempt to try out the suggestions and go from there. I am loathe to take the engine apart, but we may end up doing that anyway.

 

[nkaminar]

Before you take the engine apart, verify that the timing pin is indicating TDC first, as many people have suggested. It may not be necessary to take the engine apart.

I liked the suggestion to try a new condensor.

 

[philcobill]

Okay just a quick question. From what I gather above, it might be possible to start and run the engine with the timing gear and the crankshaft gear out of sync by one or two teeth. My first thought is that this would be difficult. But is it possible?

Going out right now to check to see of the engine is TDC with the timing pin in the indentation.

 

[Big hammer]

Put your finger in the #1 hole feel for compression ! You can have TDC twice !

 

[philcobill]

I can't tell what is going on. The only thing I saw was the intake valve popping up. It looks I need a partner to help out.
More later.

 

[eagle]

To check for consistent strong spark, lift all of the spark plug straps so there is about an eighth inch gap then in a darkened area run the starter while watching the spark on each strap. It should be strong and steady. Its an easy to do test that really tells you a lot when troubleshooting an issue. The biggest challenge is usually separating a problem into fuel vs spark. In your case you also need to verify timing but that's not hard, I'd pull the valve cover and watch the valves in conjunction with TDC.

 

[fast150]

I would pull the #1 spark plug and look in to double check that the valves are opening and closing at the right time in the stroke. I installed a new timing gear in a Model T engine once and could not get it to run right afterwards. Turned out the new gear was marked wrong from the manufacturer. I found the problem by looking at the valve timing. If it ran ok before you changed the gear, that’s where I would look first before I started introducing a lot of other variables.

 

[katy]

When we installed the timing gear three people checked, double-checked, and triple check the meshing of the timing gear and the crankshaft gear.

Before driving the car around the block on the Tillotson and while idling it, the engine sound was the best I have heard out of it. The idle was much quieter than before

It sounds like your timing and gears are spot on, so the problem is either electrical or carburation. Have you tried replacing the condensor?

 

[philcobill]

I ended up taking off the timing gear cover. There is a "0" on the crankshaft gear opposite the indentation on the timing gear. Is this where the timing gear should be placed? If it is correct, then I have some other issue. Is it possible that the indentation is off? I think someone mentioned that possibility in this thread.

 

[1955cj5]

That looks correct.....

Here are a couple of pictures. Do you still have the old cam gear? You can compare dimple locations....it being in the wrong place seems like a long shot but anything is possible.

 

[nkaminar]

Looks correct to me too. The two holes in the cam gear that the pins on the camshaft go into are offset by a slight amount so that the gear can go on in only one orientation. If the cam gear was forced on with the holes not oriented incorrectly then you can still be out of timing. Another thing to check. Unlikely that this is your problem.

If you have not done so, replace the condensor, as others have advised.

You have tried different carburetors but not an entirely different distributor including the rotor, cap, and housing. Can you borrow a known good one from a different car?

Sorry, another question: Is the spring for the thrust bearing for the cam shaft to spec? It should be 35 to 38 pounds when compressed.

 

[jg61hawk]

Here is a page from the red book. It looks like you did the timing correctly assuming the gear went in smoothly as the book mentions the alignment pins are off center. Not being a jerk but we all said try checking spark and fuel as you said it did run for a short while and ran as smooth as silk. Did you try starting fluid, grounding the plugs, changing the condenser, jumping out the amp meter across the junction box....these are all very valid and fast checks? I know you're probably pissed off so don't take this the wrong way. It's just a lot of fuel problems are electrical, and a lot of electrical problems are fuel and....you get the point.....we need to trace this out logically. They are just lawn mower motors on steroids'.