C4 transmission question

[ms fowler]

I am preparing to install a C4 in my 1964 Falcon. The C4 that I have is the later version with the Select Shift valve body.
Can I simply sway the valve body for an early C4 and have the original "green dot" drive?
How do I identify the correct valve body other than the absence of the little spring-loaded valve under the edge of the filter?
What can I expect to pay?

 

[BW]

The 1967 to 1969 maybe 1970 valve body is the same as the early Green Dot. So you need to find out what year C4 you are installing. You may find the parts you need at Fatsco Transmission Parts.

 

[BW]

Update it is the 1967 to 1969 valve body. This may also help www.fatsco.net

 

[KULTULZ]

I am preparing to install a C4 in my 1964 Falcon. The C4 that I have is the later version with the Select Shift valve body.

Here is something you rarely ever hear ...

What trans is in the FALCON now?

What engine size?

Can you ID the year of the replacement trans?

Why would you want DUAL RANGE (GREEN DOT) over SELECT-SHIFT (wondering)?

 

[55blacktie]

The "Green Dot" valve body was used in 1965-66; it was not used beginning in 1967. You can use a 70-up 9-bolt valve body in the earlier 8-bolt case by inserting a nut & bolt in the extra hole of the 9-bolt valve body. However, you can't use an 8-bolt valve body in the 9-bolt case.

What you want to do, understandably, is contrary to what most want to do. The Green Dot is not popular. It is far more common to replace the Green Dot valve body with a 67-up valve body.

 

[ms fowler]

You all are correct---I should have added my reasons for wanting the earlier pattern---and maybe I am wrong.
Car was originally a 170 six with 2 speed Fordomatic. I had '64 Sprint with the Fordomatic and was not a fan--it seemed to suck out all the joy with its single shift.
When I got the car, it had a 250 Six and a poorly installed Tremec 5 speed, but the guy has hacked the floor to pieces and I wanted to get back to original appearance. I remember that a '66 Mustang with the C4 was acceptably quick--at least up to 50-60 mph and thought that same combination would be good for this car.
I found a 200 six with C4 locally and rebuilt the engine. Now it is time to do the ****** and get it installed
I may keep the select shift, but the shift quadrant on the steering column would still be the green dot one as Ford never made a select shift indicator for the Falcon steering column. If the detents in the column match the linkage requirements for the Select Shift ( and I really hope they do), Maybe I will keep the Select Shift and just remember what the positions really are.
Drive would still be Drive, right?

 

[BW]

Since you are changing from a two speed to a three speed you may want to change to a later model column and linkage. You can also check with the Falcon Club of America to see what would work best for you.

 

[55blacktie]

When installing non-original parts, modifications normally are required. For instance, the 55-57 Tbird Fordomatic shifter, when used with a C4/C5 transmission, cannot be manually shifted into/out of Low. However, it will start out in Low and upshift/downshift normally when left in Drive. Wanting the ability to shift in/out of Low, I was going to install a Lokar C4 shifter; however, the Tbird shifter plate would have to be modified or replaced to accommodate the Lokar shifter. I've decided, therefore, to compromise and keep the OEM Tbird shifter. Having a Dynamic Racing Transmission modified governor secondary valve will allow wide-open-throttle shifts in the automatic mode up to 6,000 rpm, depending on which governor secondary valve is used; downshifts are not affected because they are controlled by the governor primary valve.

 

[KULTULZ]

I may keep the select shift, but the shift quadrant on the steering column would still be the green dot one as Ford never made a select shift indicator for the Falcon steering column (1964-1965).

If the detents in the column match the linkage requirements for the Select Shift ( and I really hope they do), Maybe I will keep the Select Shift and just remember what the positions really are.

Drive would still be Drive, right?

Well, no.

DUAL RANGE - P-R-N-2(optional 2nd gear START)-DRIVE (DIRECT)-L

SELECT-SHIFT - P-R-N-3 (DIRECT)-2-L

Do you still have the T-5?

 

[ms fowler]

T5 is long gone.
I ran into a Falcon guy who restores and restomods mostly Falcon in North Wales, Pa.
I know Falcons as they were originally constructed. This guy knows what goes with what when you start making modifications. He got me the correct steering column, C4 linkage adapter and parking brake linkage adapters. I also bought the shift rather from him, but I was thinking I would have a C4 from 1965--looks like I may have to change that.

 

[BW]

If you have a 1965 C4 just change the valve body to a 1967 to 1969.

 

[KULTULZ]

He got me the correct steering column, C4 linkage adapter ...

So he put put a STD column in it and you had to revert it to AT?

You're worried about the trans shift indicator?

How badly were the front floor pans butchered? Are you going to repair or replace?

I a$$-u-me you have a bench seat and no interest in a floor shift (say later MUST)?

Keep us posted please as it is interesting.

 

[Gene F]

So the green-dot valve body - is that the thing that made the 66 Mustangs start out in second gear when the shifter was placed in second. I am told it was because the car had a light rear, and it helped in the snow.

Wonder why only 1 year?

 

[KULTULZ]

So the green-dot valve body - is that the thing that made the 66 Mustangs start out in second gear when the shifter was placed in second. I am told it was because the car had a light rear, and it helped in the snow.

Wonder why only 1 year?

No, both the DUAL-RANGE CRUISE-O-MATIC (1958-1968) and later SELECT-SHIFT (1966/ ) started in L.

The FORD-O-MATIC (3S) had a 2nd gear start.

 

[Gene F]

So what makes the Ford-O-Matic (3S) operate like that? I always thought if I ever bought a 66 and it had that, and it worked I'd wanna buy the car.

 

[55blacktie]

If you manually shift to the white dot, it will start out in 2nd gear. If you manually shift to the green Dot, it will automatically shift through 1-3. If you manually shift to Low, it will start in Low and hold Low until you manually shift to another gear. Here you go: vintage-mustang.com/threads/green-dot-shift-c4.447667/

Holding 2nd gear is the same for Green Dot, Fordomatic, and AOD transmission. As soon as the transmission shifts to 2nd gear, immediately manually shift to Low; it will remain in 2nd gear until you manually shift to the green Dot.

 

[rotorwrench]

All the early Borg Warner single range design automatics were called Ford-O Matic in the 50s except the Mercury and Lincoln versions. The new Ford-O-Matic with aluminum case for 1960 was a 2-speed only. The dual range type for 1958 Fords and Mercury cars were called Cruise-O-Matics. The first small block V8 engines for 1962 (221 & 260) and mid 1963 (289) could use a 2-speed or a cruise-o-matic. The C4 follows the Ford part prefix for 1964 origin. It was a completely Ford manufactured transmission and kept the Cruise-O-Matic plan form for shifting. I also should mention the small block rear bolt pattern change from 5-bolt to 6-bolt that came in 1966. That can put a damper on some engine to transmission swapping depending on what a person has. The Ford 144/170/200 design straight sixes also changed bolt pattern from 5-bolt to 6-bolts in 1966.

 

[KULTULZ]

So what makes the Ford-O-Matic (3S) operate like that? I always thought if I ever bought a 66 and it had that, and it worked I'd wanna buy the car.

It is confusing.

THE FORD-O-MATIC was a SINGLE-RANGE true 3S but started in 2nd (unless 1st was initiated) for fuel savings and to compete with the GM POWER-GLIDE.

Here is a brief tutorial - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise-O-Matic

The F/M (SINGLE-RANGE) was used from 1951-1960.

The F/M/2 (true 2/S) (economy trans) was introduced in 1959 and replaced by the C4 during the 1964 model run.

The C/M (DUAL-RANGE) was introduced in the 1958 model year and ran to 1968 when it was replaced by the FMX and C6.

SINGLE-RANGE INDICATOR READS - P-R-N-D-L

DUAL-RANGE (GREEN DOT) INDICATOR READS - P-R-2-D-1

SELECT-SHIFT INDICATOR SHOWS P-R-N-D-2-1

 

[ms fowler]

So he put put a STD column in it and you had to revert it to AT?

You're worried about the trans shift indicator?

How badly were the front floor pans butchered? Are you going to repair or replace?

I a$$-u-me you have a bench seat and no interest in a floor shift (say later MUST)?

Keep us posted please as it is interesting.

The previous owner had pulled the original engine and trans. Somewhere along the way, a 3 speed manual steering column had been installed.
That same PO cut out the entire center of the crossmember at the rear of the transmission. I sectioned in a replacement floor with the cross member.
Bench seat
My goal is as much original appearing as I can make it.
I attend several of the Carlisle Pa Events and the Ford Nationals have become quite large events. In looking at all the early Falcons. Mustangs, Mavericks and their Mercury cousins, I see almost no six cylinder engines--most have been converted to V8s. I understand that and people have a right to do what they choose with their car. However, I wanted people to see what MOST people actually drove--back in the day. Millions upon millions of the these cars came with some version of the Falcon ("downhill") six. I want a car to represent those people. Not everyone was a hot-rodder in the 60s. It was a simpler time.

 

[KULTULZ]

My goal is as much original appearing as I can make it.

I attend several of the Carlisle Pa Events and the Ford Nationals have become quite large events. In looking at all the early Falcons. Mustangs, Mavericks and their Mercury cousins, I see almost no six cylinder engines--most have been converted to V8s. I understand that and people have a right to do what they choose with their car. However, I wanted people to see what MOST people actually drove--back in the day. Millions upon millions of the these cars came with some version of the Falcon ("downhill") six. I want a car to represent those people. Not everyone was a hot-rodder in the 60s. It was a simpler time.

I understand and appreciate your approach. Nothing in the world wrong with it.

Believe it or not, that engine series was 'hot-rodded' in the day.
Is the car a 2 or 4-Dr SEDAN?

You know, at some point, you are going to have to post photos of the build ...