Burtzs block

Jeff/Illinois said:
I'm ALL for Mr. Burtz' engine receiving full points in competition.

I mean, for crying out loud:mad:

Not allowing such is akin to a clique of Model A owners trying to deduct points off of another's car, to promote themselves.

I say put it to a vote and let the MAFCA and MARC community as well as non club Model A owners have a say which way this one goes! Thank God for somebody like Terry B. trying to move the hobby forward!
No need to throw up road blocks.
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Hi Jeff,

Understand your enthusiasm. At issue here is authenticity as it relates to fine point (blue ribbon) judging. Fredski53 asked, "Question, if I install a Burtz block in my Model A and the block looks stock on the outside, can I enter the car in fine points judging?" Terry Burtz and I helped answered his question.

Whether or not a reproduction part should or should not be "allowed" is up to the committee. For example, the committee decided a long time ago to overlook (no deduction) certain modifications, like a safety fuse in the electrical circuit. If you would like to join the committee and help write the rules, that would be excellent! There is a pathway to doing so.

For the record, there are different classes of Model A judging. The blue ribbon class is for the cars that look exactly like they did when they left the factory, down to the finest detail. If that isn't your thing, check out the Modified or Touring classes of judging. If none of that is your thing, there's always Restorer's Class where cars are "evaluated" instead of judged.

However, it sounds to me like you probably don't want that either, and that's fine! Judging cars isn't for everyone, and being judged isn't for ever car. Simply don't enter you or your car and enjoy all the other things the hobby provides.
 
If you are building a fine point car you can certainly use an original Ford A engine. Why wouldn't you? These are not vehicles you are going to tour with because they will show the signs of that usage. Which engine may or may not be better on the road does not matter in this case.
You can go for the Burtz later if that is your preference for driving. Trying do fool the judges just bothers me, what will be next?
I'm sure i'll catch hell for this. Just one opinion.
 
I recommend that anyone that hasn't read Judging The model A Ford page 2 in the front of the Restoration Guidelines take a few moments to check it out . It does state under Judging Philosophy (If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original when new , it too will shall merit FULL points . ) There is much more information that are instructions for anyone that is doing the judging . Usually there are 2 or more people judging each of the 23 categories plus The Chief judge . There is so much more information . The cars or trucks are not judged against each other they are judged against the information in the Judging Standards . I hope I didn't make this info to long .
 
This discussion is answered by this excerpt from the Judging Standards:

An original part that is well restored and correct for the vehicle being judged shall be awarded full points. If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original when new, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if materials are different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points.
 
I wonder how many engine blocks used in fine point cars are restamped? Do the owners speak up and say oh I restamped my block because the original was junk? I see no difference with the Burtz. It is a replacement for what was there. I don't agree with not being up front about it though. How many fine point cars are made up from parts gathered here and there to make an " original" car. For me the only original cars are the ones that have most of the parts they where built with. Not to get off the Burtz question but probably 90 percent of cars advertised as restored original are not original. The word original has lost its meaning. Restored to original appearance might be more appropriate. No one can deny that the Burtz engine has rejuvenated a certain segment of the hobby and has the potential to keep these cars on the road for many more years.
 
Richard Knight said:
How many fine point cars are made up from parts gathered here and there to make an " original" car.
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A scroll through some of the Restorer back issues shows what some of the fine point cars started out as. For some of them, I would have personally said "no, that's scrap..." but braver souls than me took it upon themselves to not only rebuild the car, but make it "as new" in the process. God bless them for their efforts!
 
Richard Knight said:
I wonder how many engine blocks used in fine point cars are restamped? Do the owners speak up and say oh I restamped my block because the original was junk? I see no difference with the Burtz. It is a replacement for what was there. I don't agree with not being up front about it though. How many fine point cars are made up from parts gathered here and there to make an " original" car. For me the only original cars are the ones that have most of the parts they where built with. Not to get off the Burtz question but probably 90 percent of cars advertised as restored original are not original. The word original has lost its meaning. Restored to original appearance might be more appropriate. No one can deny that the Burtz engine has rejuvenated a certain segment of the hobby and has the potential to keep these cars on the road for many more years.
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Good point.....
 
The value of a new block is such that it not only will keep driver cars running but it also has the potential to bring old non running cars back to driver status. The modern improvements internally should give a smoother and longer lasting status to keep model A cars going through future generations of inthusiasts. It has been needed for a long time so I truly hope for its future success.
 
rackops said:
This discussion is answered by this excerpt from the Judging Standards:

An original part that is well restored and correct for the vehicle being judged shall be awarded full points. If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original when new, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if materials are different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points.
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I see your point. The Burtz Block IS indistinguishable from any other 1928-31 Ford cast 5 bearing Model A engine.........
 
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ModelA29 said:
I see your point. The Burtz Block IS indistinguishable from any other 1928-31 Ford cast 5 bearing Model A engine.........
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Agree. I believe the Burtz blocks should receive full points in judging, seeing how they are indistinguishable from an original bloc. Until someone slips and tells the judges it is a Burtz block, they can't even tell the difference:p
 
BlueSunoco said:
Agree. I believe the Burtz blocks should receive full points in judging, seeing how they are indistinguishable from an original bloc. Until someone slips and tells the judges it is a Burtz block, they can't even tell the difference:p
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I have purposely stayed out of this as I was interested in reading the comments. The irony is, how many people here giving these opinions have actually restored and displayed a Model-A in MARC/MAFCA Fine-point Adjudication? This would even apply to those who have been given Liaison duties?

It is my opinion (-also as someone who has restored AND showed many Model-As in Fine-Point Adjudication and one that has judged many different Areas over the years) that people are stating opinions that are not 'real-world'. Unless a vehicle is being displayed as an unmolested time-capsule vehicle, there is plenty on these vehicles that is not original. Some items are addressed within the RG&JS and others are not. Area 1 gives some basic overviews as to what is correct however for the majority of details, it does not mention these differences.

There are subtle casting differences that I have noticed over the years from handling quite a few A engine blocks. Generally speaking, the Chief Judge instructs all Team Captains and Adjudicators that even although they may have knowledge obtained from personal research or experiences, they are instructed to only judge on information that comes from the RG&JS book (-along with a few authorized publications) ...AND if their is any doubt to authenticity of a component, -then to give the Car Owner the benefit of the doubt and give no deductions.

So to answer the O/P's question, having a vehicle adjudicated with a Burtz block is really no different than using a modern paint, or reproduction upholstery fabrics, replacement glass, new plating on original components, etc. etc. It is all about the appearance on the specific day of adjudication and really cannot be answered here in a hypothetical scenario.
 
Terry Burtz said:
Martin Larsen entered a fine point car at the MAFCA National Convention in Kerrville, Texas with a New Engine detailed per the "Builders Guide", and won an "Award of Excellence". This car did not have an oil filter or pressure gauge, so there was no difference in exterior appearance and no deduction for having the New Engine.

Another car with the New Engine was entered at another meet for fine point judging but only received 50% points because the judges knew about the New Engine.

If you are building a points car, do not brag about having the New Engine, brake and clutch pedal heads with deep grooves, Bakelite distributor bodies with one notch and steel cadmium-plated electrodes, 3X spark bases with the correct external knurl without bands, any of the aluminum top moldings used on closed cars, and the Nitrile front and rear main bearing seals because I manufacture these parts.

For judging purposes, don't let anyone know you have a New Engine, and present your points car to the judges without comment. Let the judges determine if the engine is new, if the paint is new, if the upholstery is new, if the top is new, if the tires are new, and if the car has reproduction parts.
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Seems like the judges have "sour grapes". That is like marking the car down for being correct, but useful. Jealousy I guess.
 
BlueSunoco said:
Agree. I believe the Burtz blocks should receive full points in judging, seeing how they are indistinguishable from an original bloc. Until someone slips and tells the judges it is a Burtz block, they can't even tell the difference:p
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You missed my point - there were no 5 bearing engines made by Ford. The Burtz is therefore distinguishable from an original and should be scored accordingly.
 
ModelA29 said:
You missed my point - there were no 5 bearing engines made by Ford. The Burtz is therefore distinguishable from an original and should be scored accordingly.
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No sir I didn't miss your point, of course I know the Model A did not have a five bearing set-up:eek:
How can you tell it is a five bearing engine, and not a three bearing, without dropping the oil pan, and that ain't gonna happen............So I stand by my opinion that 'yes' the Burtz block needs to be given full points in judging.
 
I wonder how long it will be before Judging Folks are allowed to pull the breather pipe and shine a flashlight inside the crankcase to see the type of crankshaft that is in there!
 
Being new to the Model A world my perspective is more neither left or right so to speak on the Burtz block. Are the judges going to start dismantling cars to verify parts, I hope not. I think purist's need to realise as long as it looks like it originally just rolled off the showroom floor isn't that what it's all about.

I think Post#31 got it correct on this one. Otherwise what a can of worms we would have with aftermarket parts. Let's just enjoy some incredible cars and grow the Model A world.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
I have purposely stayed out of this as I was interested in reading the comments. The irony is, how many people here giving these opinions have actually restored and displayed a Model-A in MARC/MAFCA Fine-point Adjudication? This would even apply to those who have been given Liaison duties?

It is my opinion (-also as someone who has restored AND showed many Model-As in Fine-Point Adjudication and one that has judged many different Areas over the years) that people are stating opinions that are not 'real-world'. Unless a vehicle is being displayed as an unmolested time-capsule vehicle, there is plenty on these vehicles that is not original. Some items are addressed within the RG&JS and others are not. Area 1 gives some basic overviews as to what is correct however for the majority of details, it does not mention these differences.

There are subtle casting differences that I have noticed over the years from handling quite a few A engine blocks. Generally speaking, the Chief Judge instructs all Team Captains and Adjudicators that even although they may have knowledge obtained from personal research or experiences, they are instructed to only judge on information that comes from the RG&JS book (-along with a few authorized publications) ...AND if their is any doubt to authenticity of a component, -then to give the Car Owner the benefit of the doubt and give no deductions.

So to answer the O/P's question, having a vehicle adjudicated with a Burtz block is really no different than using a modern paint, or reproduction upholstery fabrics, replacement glass, new plating on original components, etc. etc. It is all about the appearance on the specific day of adjudication and really cannot be answered here in a hypothetical scenario.
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Brent,

Thanks for your post regarding adjudication and the use of new parts that appear to be original.

Like you, I also enjoy reading comments and seldom respond.

There are a lot of subtle variations on the cylinder block, and I chose to laser scan an original cylinder block that was not at the extremes of the variations.

The small lump at the rear of the cylinder block that provides wall thickness for the drilled hole used to lubricate the rear camshaft bearing is not documented on a Ford drawing, and there are many variations.

The bottom radius on the pad for the serial number can vary from small to large. The Ford drawing specifies a radius, but when the pad was lengthened, not all lengthened pads have a radius that agrees with the drawing.

My thoughts are that the pattern makers were instructed to make a change in the field instead of at the pattern shop, and that is why there are variations.
 
Terry Burtz said:
Brent,

Thanks for your post regarding adjudication and the use of new parts that appear to be original.

Like you, I also enjoy reading comments and seldom respond.

There are a lot of subtle variations on the cylinder block, and I chose to laser scan an original cylinder block that was not at the extremes of the variations.

The small lump at the rear of the cylinder block that provides wall thickness for the drilled hole used to lubricate the rear camshaft bearing is not documented on a Ford drawing, and there are many variations.

The bottom radius on the pad for the serial number can vary from small to large. The Ford drawing specifies a radius, but when the pad was lengthened, not all lengthened pads have a radius that agrees with the drawing.

My thoughts are that the pattern makers were instructed to make a change in the field instead of at the pattern shop, and that is why there are variations.
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And there is also differences between USA castings and Canadian Windsor plant castings. I have approximately thirty engines in my back shed, and I don't think there would be three or four that would be the same. When you start to look, there are a lot of small differences.
 
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