Briggs Body Number. No such thing?

M

MoJo's A

Junior Member
Dealing with the State of Minnesota for a title, is a pain in the you know what.
I bought this 1931 fordor Briggs car last year with no title.
Previous owner wasn't positive if it was a 30 0r 31. So he just took a guess and put 1931 on the bill of sale.
After doing a lot of research, all indications point it to a 1930.
Grill, black on the bottom, no indentation on top.
Running board splash is the short one used from January to September in 1930.
Speedometer is the oval shaped. Not round like a 1931.
The frame number is basically gone. Someone in the past must have decided to use a grinder to take off the surface rust. Only half of a "1" is visible.
No motor to get any number's.
So I go to the DMV with pictures of the car and body serial number which the state requires.
Ten weeks later I get a letter yesterday from the state stating there is NO Such Ford number. 162-2719.
I know I have seen the 162 listed from others on this site in the past.

Is there any site that lists this number as a legit Ford number.

"Scratching my head in Minnesnowda, losing more hair.
Thanks
Joe
 

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That's a Briggs body number.
What I did for my 29 Tudor with tank date of 2-23-29 is buy an engine at a swap meet with a January or February manufacture date, and I used that number to get a bonded title. After being jacked around for 18 months and $500, I got titles for my 29 and 31 Model A's. I later learned you are much better off going to a small town DMV, as a couple guys in our club went to Roseville and walked out with titles in a matter of a few weeks, not months or years.
 
MoJo's A said:
Dealing with the State of Minnesota for a title, is a pain in the you know what.
I bought this 1931 fordor Briggs car last year with no title.
Previous owner wasn't positive if it was a 30 0r 31. So he just took a guess and put 1931 on the bill of sale.
After doing a lot of research, all indications point it to a 1930.
Grill, black on the bottom, no indentation on top.
Running board splash is the short one used from January to September in 1930.
Speedometer is the oval shaped. Not round like a 1931.
The frame number is basically gone. Someone in the past must have decided to use a grinder to take off the surface rust. Only half of a "1" is visible.
No motor to get any number's.
So I go to the DMV with pictures of the car and body serial number which the state requires.
Ten weeks later I get a letter yesterday from the state stating there is NO Such Ford number. 162-2719.
I know I have seen the 162 listed from others on this site in the past.

Is there any site that lists this number as a legit Ford number.

"Scratching my head in Minnesnowda, losing more hair.
Thanks
Joe
Click to expand...
It is a legit Ford number however it was intended to be used by Ford only to track bodies not vehicles. To the best of my knowledge there are no records of these numbers being used to track anything other than bodies. The motor number (too bad is missing) is also stamped into the top of the left frame rail where it would be covered by the front of the body. Is there where you are looking? The next step would be to try and raise the serial number with acid like the police do with recovered firearms that have had the numbers removed. Check the archives on this procedure.

Charlie Stephens
 
if you cant get a number off it you may have to title as an assembled. it would get you a plateable title.
 
The 1929 Leatherback we purchased several years ago was titled using the Briggs body tag number. We parted out most of the sheetmetal and I used the numbers matching chassis/ engine numbers for the bonded title for the delivery. Since the numbers had never been used that made the bonded title easy. As stated above those numbers were never meant to be used for a title. Rod
 
Thanks for the reply's guys.
When I went to the DMV I asked them if they wanted the engine or frame serial numbers.
They said no. In Minnesota it's the body number is what they go by on the title.
 
What number was used on your bill of sale? If it were me, I would stamp that number on the engine I put in the car. That way the paper trail would be consistent. Someone must have done that to my 1929 tudor. How do I know? Because the engine was built in 1936! (A diamond block.) So the original number followed the car even though the engine did not.
 
Hi Joe,

I can personally share in your frustrating experience and feelings; but, please do not give up.

One sure thing is that most people in DMV are definitely our Typical U. S. Government type workers who never want to go to the trouble to research how to help customers with out-of-the-ordinary circumstances.

It appears almost everyone in DMV follows a very detailed, step-by-step bland cook book method, probably written by Betty Crocker's sister who could not even begin to boil eggs ....... even when using Betty Crocker's Cookbook.

Seems as though absolutely no DMV worker is willing to engage in work such as at an Ace Hardware Store, assisting customers with out-of-the ordinary projects -- thinking is far too difficult on a typical DMV Government Worker's brain.

For a first try, after your first experience, maybe ask if they have a "Special Titles Section", or something similar ......... many State DMV's have this ....... and if they do, schedule an appointment to meet "eye to eye" with this person rather than write letters.

I fought a Model A title with notarized documents, Deputy Inspections, Justices-of-the-Peace Court Orders, for about 20 years to no avail ...... then ...... I made my "Last Stand", like Custer ...... I told them I was coming to their office, "in person", with a written, "District Judge's Court Order", demanding that they issue me a 1930 Model A title.

I think all of the stores within 30 miles around the Main DMV State Headquarters ran out of Charmin Toilet Tissue ...... but ..... I am here to tell you ........ I got my Model A title.

Please don't give up.

P.S.: Forgot to add: The lady in the "DMV Special Titles Section", who gladly issued my Model A title, (even though my Model A was totally dismantled), issued my title with no objection.

She was also very courteous, very professional, and extremely nice.

Wish I had met her with my Model A Title Application years ago ...... she was truly a very compassionate professional lady ..... hope you can find someone like her at your DMV.
 
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Here in Louisiana Notarized bill of sale, a stateement from the DPS that the car is not stolen and proof you are in an antique car club and a week to 10 days later A title.
 
Sorry H.L., I think your stereotype of gov't workers is not true in my experiences (10 times obtaining titles in the past 25 years). MoJo, follow Tom W's advice, perhaps a small town will not be so busy and have more experienced people. If you are near the Twin Cities, try Woodbury or Stillwater, EXCELLENT people.
 
MoJo's A said:
Dealing with the State of Minnesota for a title, is a pain in the you know what.
I bought this 1931 fordor Briggs car last year with no title.
Previous owner wasn't positive if it was a 30 0r 31. So he just took a guess and put 1931 on the bill of sale.
After doing a lot of research, all indications point it to a 1930.
Grill, black on the bottom, no indentation on top.
Running board splash is the short one used from January to September in 1930.
Speedometer is the oval shaped. Not round like a 1931.
The frame number is basically gone. Someone in the past must have decided to use a grinder to take off the surface rust. Only half of a "1" is visible.
No motor to get any number's.
So I go to the DMV with pictures of the car and body serial number which the state requires.
Ten weeks later I get a letter yesterday from the state stating there is NO Such Ford number. 162-2719.
I know I have seen the 162 listed from others on this site in the past.

Is there any site that lists this number as a legit Ford number.

"Scratching my head in Minnesnowda, losing more hair.
Thanks
Joe
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just me, but for a title you need a body style and a "vin" correct?

The 162 will give you a body style but you still need a "vin" and you don't have one, not on the engine nor frame. I don't see how you are going to do it.
 
H. L. Chauvin said:
....One sure thing is that most people in DMV are definitely our Typical U. S. Government type workers who never want to go to the trouble to research how to help customers with out-of-the-ordinary circumstances. .....Seems as though absolutely no DMV worker is willing to engage in work such as at an Ace Hardware Store, assisting customers with out-of-the ordinary projects -- thinking is far too difficult on a typical DMV Government Worker's brain.

..............Forgot to add: The lady in the "DMV Special Titles Section", who gladly issued my Model A title, (even though my Model A was totally dismantled), issued my title with no objection. She was also very courteous, very professional, and extremely nice. Wish I had met her with my Model A Title Application years ago ...... she was truly a very compassionate professional lady ..... hope you can find someone like her at your DMV.
Click to expand...

Lucky you. Goes to show that "typical" ain't "typical"!! :rolleyes:
 
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MOjo,

Find someone who owns an A in Minnesota and ask to look at their title. Make a copy of it and then you and the DMV might be able to figure out what you need. Also, in my experience try to get the oldest (more experienced) person at the counter. Previous advice to go to a less busy DMV office is important also.

Good luck,

Ted
 
There are few people on here that I would rather disagree with less than H.L., whose almost always correct. (In my opinion) However, Having worked in and around some state offices in NJ, DMV, Lab, And Ind, Etc, I gained a lot of respect for the workers in DMVs especially. At certain times of the month, no one works harder! Even people in the private sector. DMV Deals in "Items" Getting a Driv. Lic. is one Item. Getting a registration is one item. Getting a transfer of title is an item. Most common items, transfer of title and registration is two. (I can't recall if collect the sales tax makes three items) The girls run through these "Items" endlessly all day, typing their fingers off with amazing speed and accuracy. Coffee breaks and lunch times are strictly scheduled. Yes, I know mistakes are made. I have a boat trailer that was made by Dilley, but the title says Datsun, but that happened in Harrisburg, not in a local agency. And that was Pa, not NJ. In NJ I'd have caught it before I went out the door. Here in Pa, titles must go to Harrisburg. The point is that The girls in the agency are just following the rules as laid by Trenton, Harrisburg, Albany, whichever and they are pressed for time. They can't spend much more than the time alloted per item, discussing what should be done. I suggest that you back with your paperwork (all of it) when the agency is in slack time of the month and discuss the problem with the agent or supervisor, the head person, in a calm way (Even though it's infuriating) and you'll get more done. Don't be afraid to ask where in the law it says this or that and get a copy of that particular statute for your own reference. I hope this helps!
Terry

H. L. Chauvin said:
Hi Joe,

I can personally share in your frustrating experience and feelings; but, please do not give up.

One sure thing is that most people in DMV are definitely our Typical U. S. Government type workers who never want to go to the trouble to research how to help customers with out-of-the-ordinary circumstances.

It appears almost everyone in DMV follows a very detailed, step-by-step bland cook book method, probably written by Betty Crocker's sister who could not even begin to boil eggs ....... even when using Betty Crocker's Cookbook.

Seems as though absolutely no DMV worker is willing to engage in work such as at an Ace Hardware Store, assisting customers with out-of-the ordinary projects -- thinking is far too difficult on a typical DMV Government Worker's brain.

For a first try, after your first experience, maybe ask if they have a "Special Titles Section", or something similar ......... many State DMV's have this ....... and if they do, schedule an appointment to meet "eye to eye" with this person rather than write letters.

I fought a Model A title with notarized documents, Deputy Inspections, Justices-of-the-Peace Court Orders, for about 20 years to no avail ...... then ...... I made my "Last Stand", like Custer ...... I told them I was coming to their office, "in person", with a written, "District Judge's Court Order", demanding that they issue me a 1930 Model A title.

I think all of the stores within 30 miles around the Main DMV State Headquarters ran out of Charmin Toilet Tissue ...... but ..... I am here to tell you ........ I got my Model A title.

Please don't give up.

P.S.: Forgot to add: The lady in the "DMV Special Titles Section", who gladly issued my Model A title, (even though my Model A was totally dismantled), issued my title with no objection.

She was also very courteous, very professional, and extremely nice.

Wish I had met her with my Model A Title Application years ago ...... she was truly a very compassionate professional lady ..... hope you can find someone like her at your DMV.
Click to expand...
 
If you have neither an engine # nor a frame # you will have to find out if MN. will accept a bill of sale as a legitimate ''title'' and proceed with application for a new title. Where did you buy this car?
 
Hi Joe,

FWIW, in my opinion Joe, your case is what DMV usually classifies as "out-of-the-ordinary" and they are saying you do not have the normal modern, simple transfer situation with a VIN number.

You already mentioned your pain in the "you know what" ...... just be prepared .... from personal experience, the pain can spread elsewhere for years.

If you read difficulties already experienced with Model A titles for over 20 years on Model A Forums, with no VIN numbers, and no motor number matching original motor numbers, many Model A owners just gave up.

On the DMV bright side, my 1930 Briggs Town Sedan transfer 8 years ago was easy ..... instructions were described "on-line" in DMV's computer's "Cook-Book-Method" describing issuing titles in States where no titles were issued years ago, (like in New York), using only "registration" certificates.

She used the Briggs Body Number for the VIN number, and never asked for "any" motor number.

On my 1930 Coupe, local DMV officials sent my title transfer request to the top State DMV.

When top executives at DMV asked for a VIN or body number, I told the head lady the only number used was stamped on the chassis years ago, so she wanted a deputy to see this number; however, she said I could not lift the body "without" a Permit to Dismantle. She issued me a "Permit to Dismantle" without even asking "if" I wanted a Permit to Dismantle.

Once I had an official stamped Permit to Dismantle, it was like a Death Certificate issued by a coroner ...... this vehicle, by law could never be restored and placed on the highway for eternity.

After hiring several lawyers and Justices of the Peace for 20 years, who sent letters to DMV apprising them of "their" error, none would budge. I had paperwork 2" thick with original registration certificates and titles 48 years old. The guy I bought it from, my 90+ year neighbor, was still living to testify if needed.

Finally, one attorney friend asked me to call this particular District Judge who had a reputation among attorneys for demanding titles from DMV after he thoroughly reviewed all of the paper work.

The nice compassionate lady I mention above was more than apologetic. She remarked that she had never witnessed so much written title documentation and photographs, and never saw someone "never" giving up when they knew they were right.

She said the issued DMV Permit to Dismantle was a gross error on their part and that "all" of DMV's employees who ignored my requests for the past 20 years were most incorrect.

Maybe just me, but I told this nice lady that I once witnessed a pregnant lady with a 1-1/2 year old twin under each arm, both with dirty diapers, who walked to the front of the line and asked for a driver's license .... the response from the DMV clerk in a monotone voice ...... "pick a number" .... so typical ..... nothing at all like a clerk at a privately owned Ace Hardware store.

Or, try the IRS workers for compassion.

Again Joe, do not give up.
 
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