brake nut question
- Thread starter duffer
- Start date
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
Duffer, Ideas/thoughts/manufacturer's specs will abound! I, personally, torque them to 5 to 10 Ft Lbs. There should be NO free play in order to keep them from "wobbling" around & causing the hub races from "eating" up the hubs & also to keep the toe in stable. Think of the weight & stresses that depend on the bearings being adjusted properly. Bill W.
Patrick L.
Well-known member
All I do is spin the drum while tightening with pliers until snug, then back the nut off until the cotter can slide thru the first castle and hole.
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
Patrick,
If doing it that way, I would at LEAST go 1 hole tighter to allow for "settling" in & for the minute wear that normally occurs. Bill W.
Mitch//pa
BANNED
i agree dad but have been through this debate before on the barn and was overruled. i still do it my way and have never lost a wheel or smoked a bearing
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Mitch//pa
BANNED
and agree
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
YEP! Well let everyone do it their OWN way, it's NOT MY Car
A proper wheel bearing packing, using ONLY quality high temp disc brake grease is good for 30,000 miles, with a re-adjustment at about 15,000 miles. I hope I live for 30,000 miles longer!
Bill W. (Dad)
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
Confession: When I ran my own shop, I "lost" 2 sets of wheel bearingsin a row, when I ran out of HIGH TEMP DISC BRAKE GREASE while waiting for an order from my oil company. Ran down to Mickey Mouse parts house & grabbed a small can of "ACME"?? all purpose?? bearing grease. Both cars came back later with a constant WHIRRR sound. All the races had minute circular "pot holes"! And I lost an outer front wheel bearing on a '59 Studebaker Lark I had bought because I procrastinated too long before packing the bearings. It didn't "smoke", it just went, SCREEEECH & seized the outer cone to the spindle +*%#^$ Bill W.
Scares me when some say they even use "all-purpose" grease or even chassis grease for wheel bearings!
I'm not a rookie at this, I've seen a LOT of WEIRD stuff happen in my long/screwy "career"!
Just use ONLY a HIGH QUALITY, HIGH TEMP, DISC BRAKE GREASE, torque them to 5 Ft Lbs & you're SAFE!
Bill W.
Scares me when some say they even use "all-purpose" grease or even chassis grease for wheel bearings!
I'm not a rookie at this, I've seen a LOT of WEIRD stuff happen in my long/screwy "career"!
Just use ONLY a HIGH QUALITY, HIGH TEMP, DISC BRAKE GREASE, torque them to 5 Ft Lbs & you're SAFE!
Bill W.
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Hi Duffer,
Never lost a bearing either, & also over 50 years ago was always told that a tiny amount of loose play was better than very tight.
Then after reading so many different tightening methods, I called Timken Bearing Co. several years ago & asked for a technical engineer to explain how to tighten Model A front wheel bearings.
FWIW: He said that:
1. If one tightens these conical bearings too much, the bearing races will begin to constantly rotate in the hubs until they get loose & can fall out. Then with loose races the hubs become loose.
2. He reiterated that these races are designed to be an "interference" fit; e.g. not tight enough to where they cannot rotate, but loose enough to rotate very slightly "on rare occasions"; but not loose enough to fall out and/or rotate constantly.
3. After properly installing the hub & tightening the nut, the in & out movement of the hub should be approximately seven thousanths (0.007) of an inch & that a very, very tight fit with absolutely no in & out movement can wear bearings & races in a short period & become a disaster.
After greasing the bearings, 0.007" movement in & out appears difficult to "feel", so if one wants to be about as accurate as a dentist making a crown for a tooth, one can use a dial caliper to measure 0.007" .............. Each to his own for accuracy.
Because the castellated nut always appears to be too tight for one cotter pin slot, & too loose for the other cotter pin slot, I ground down the back side of the nut with a grinder until it appeared to be positioned correctly when the cotter pin was inserted, then marked the nut's slot with typewriter correction white paint.
Amazing how long this white paint will last on a black painted nut -- furthermore, one does not have to later guess where to re-set the nut slot with respect to the cotter pin hole.
Hope this helps.
Never lost a bearing either, & also over 50 years ago was always told that a tiny amount of loose play was better than very tight.
Then after reading so many different tightening methods, I called Timken Bearing Co. several years ago & asked for a technical engineer to explain how to tighten Model A front wheel bearings.
FWIW: He said that:
1. If one tightens these conical bearings too much, the bearing races will begin to constantly rotate in the hubs until they get loose & can fall out. Then with loose races the hubs become loose.
2. He reiterated that these races are designed to be an "interference" fit; e.g. not tight enough to where they cannot rotate, but loose enough to rotate very slightly "on rare occasions"; but not loose enough to fall out and/or rotate constantly.
3. After properly installing the hub & tightening the nut, the in & out movement of the hub should be approximately seven thousanths (0.007) of an inch & that a very, very tight fit with absolutely no in & out movement can wear bearings & races in a short period & become a disaster.
After greasing the bearings, 0.007" movement in & out appears difficult to "feel", so if one wants to be about as accurate as a dentist making a crown for a tooth, one can use a dial caliper to measure 0.007" .............. Each to his own for accuracy.
Because the castellated nut always appears to be too tight for one cotter pin slot, & too loose for the other cotter pin slot, I ground down the back side of the nut with a grinder until it appeared to be positioned correctly when the cotter pin was inserted, then marked the nut's slot with typewriter correction white paint.
Amazing how long this white paint will last on a black painted nut -- furthermore, one does not have to later guess where to re-set the nut slot with respect to the cotter pin hole.
Hope this helps.
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RonC
Well-known member
This is how Ford specified wheel bearing adjustment in the Jan and April 1928 Service Bulletins
Adjusting Front Wheel Bearing
If there is excessive play in the bearing it can be adjusted as follows: Remove wheel. Withdraw cotter key and tighten adjusting nut until the hub just starts to bind. Then back off the adjusting nut one or two notches until the hub can be freely revolved. Before replacing the wheel, be sure to insert cotter key in adjusting nut.
Important Information on Front Wheel Bearing Adjustment
1. See that front hub, inner and outer bearings are packed with grease.
2. Front hub grease retainer and lock washer should slide over threads on spindle body with fingers (loose fit).
3. Install nut, tighten same so that all component parts are pulled together snugly; that is, inner and outer bearings will be snug in cones, lock washer tight against roller bearing, and nut tight against lock washer. Grasp drum at top and bottom, apply side strain; see that bearings are tight in wheel hub with no side play. (A slight drag will be noticeable when drum is turned.) Not over eight or ten pounds' pressure is required on speed wrench to get these results.
4. Turn nut back two castle slots (this is approximately 1/4 turn of nut); insert cotter pin and try bearings for a slight side play and a free spinning wheel.
Adjusting Front Wheel Bearing
If there is excessive play in the bearing it can be adjusted as follows: Remove wheel. Withdraw cotter key and tighten adjusting nut until the hub just starts to bind. Then back off the adjusting nut one or two notches until the hub can be freely revolved. Before replacing the wheel, be sure to insert cotter key in adjusting nut.
Important Information on Front Wheel Bearing Adjustment
1. See that front hub, inner and outer bearings are packed with grease.
2. Front hub grease retainer and lock washer should slide over threads on spindle body with fingers (loose fit).
3. Install nut, tighten same so that all component parts are pulled together snugly; that is, inner and outer bearings will be snug in cones, lock washer tight against roller bearing, and nut tight against lock washer. Grasp drum at top and bottom, apply side strain; see that bearings are tight in wheel hub with no side play. (A slight drag will be noticeable when drum is turned.) Not over eight or ten pounds' pressure is required on speed wrench to get these results.
4. Turn nut back two castle slots (this is approximately 1/4 turn of nut); insert cotter pin and try bearings for a slight side play and a free spinning wheel.
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
H.L,
Was this Timken Engineer an ooold engineer that had collected info from "old wives" & old Model A guys that may be steeped with inaccurate info? TOO TIGHT is a keyword here. 5 Ft Lbs torque is NOT too tight & will NOT cause races to spin inside the hubs, that is the job of the rollers & the grease to prevent that! What about the pre-load on diff carriers??? Bill W.
Was this Timken Engineer an ooold engineer that had collected info from "old wives" & old Model A guys that may be steeped with inaccurate info? TOO TIGHT is a keyword here. 5 Ft Lbs torque is NOT too tight & will NOT cause races to spin inside the hubs, that is the job of the rollers & the grease to prevent that! What about the pre-load on diff carriers??? Bill W.
john in illinois
Well-known member
I have learned from experience that Bill and Mitch have the right idea. I keep a preload on the tapered front bearings like the pinion bearings,But it sure isn't a popular idea. Worked for me for 17,000 mostly highway miles.
John
John
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
RonC,
We've learned a lot since these procedures were written in 1928. 5 Ft Lbs of torque is NOT a lot!
The above procedure is quite reasonable, EXCEPT for backing off the nut by 2 castellations. Bill W.
Mitch//pa
BANNED
personally i dont actually use a torque wrench its a feel thing with a waterpump pliers but it ends with no end pay and a very slight preload...
the last time i called for tech assistance i got a person from the other side of the world and had to hang up because of the language barrier...
the last time i called for tech assistance i got a person from the other side of the world and had to hang up because of the language barrier...
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
John, Do all the folks in Illinois have good common sense, such as you exhibit? If so, I may move there!
Relax, everyone, I'm through HARPIN' about wheel bearing adjustment & SAFETY! If I had stayed off the Internet today, I could have finished & been driving Vermin by now, DANG! Bill W.
Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
The method I have used aftert experimenting with many of the methods in shop man using torque wrenches---dial indicators etc. it comes out the same as the "fancy" methods---
If the castle nut moves easy on the threads with fingers ---tighten with wrench,or pliers while spinning drum(seats bearing), back off nut till "loose", tighten as tight as you can get it with 2 fingers while spinning drum, back off to first alignment of cotter pin hole
Never give in to the urge to "just a little tighter, the pin holes almost line up"
If the castle nut moves easy on the threads with fingers ---tighten with wrench,or pliers while spinning drum(seats bearing), back off nut till "loose", tighten as tight as you can get it with 2 fingers while spinning drum, back off to first alignment of cotter pin hole
Never give in to the urge to "just a little tighter, the pin holes almost line up"
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
One LAST remark (I promise!)
To those who DON'T believe in a little pre-load, I ask, "What did you do as a trade"? Bill W.
To those who DON'T believe in a little pre-load, I ask, "What did you do as a trade"? Bill W.
.I don't know if the guys a Timken know anything but here is
a link to there instructions. http://www.timken.com/en-us/solutio...1_Proper_Tapered_Bearing_Settings_English.pdf
Bob
a link to there instructions. http://www.timken.com/en-us/solutio...1_Proper_Tapered_Bearing_Settings_English.pdf
Bob
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Bill,
In my message above, I have no idea if the Timken Engineer's wife was very old or young, or if she was nice looking -- I even did not ask if he was married. or if he had a mechanically inclined dog. LOL
I think in my mentioning above, "FWIW" & "Each to his own", this type of open suggestion & guidance appears to work well with everyone's intentions over which we have no control.
"Each to his own" can work from what one feels he wants to eat for breakfast all the way through deciding who one wants to sleeps with at night -- then some nights, one may not even want to sleep -- that is OK with me too!
Many would agree that Mr. Timken's mentioning the expression "too tight" has many different meanings.
Hope this explanation helps to unravel Mr. Timken's advice.
In my message above, I have no idea if the Timken Engineer's wife was very old or young, or if she was nice looking -- I even did not ask if he was married. or if he had a mechanically inclined dog. LOL
I think in my mentioning above, "FWIW" & "Each to his own", this type of open suggestion & guidance appears to work well with everyone's intentions over which we have no control.
"Each to his own" can work from what one feels he wants to eat for breakfast all the way through deciding who one wants to sleeps with at night -- then some nights, one may not even want to sleep -- that is OK with me too!
Many would agree that Mr. Timken's mentioning the expression "too tight" has many different meanings.
Hope this explanation helps to unravel Mr. Timken's advice.
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