Bob Drake's Cast Iron Headers

rheltzel said:
Thanks, 41LjH. A friend recently called Red's and was advised that they are unable to continue production of their headers because they can't find qualified welders who will work at reasonable wages. They hope to go back into production at some point, but for now, they're out of business. A real bummer from so many different perspectives.
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Believe that is in reference to Red's steel tube headers.
 
Is it any wonder we can't seem to make anything in this country anymore? The public schools no longer teach trades, and even if they did, how are we supposed to compete against Chinese labor rates, especially when the consumer insists on paying the lowest possible price, regardless of quality? Maybe large scale industry like the auto industry can rely more and more on robots and other high technology, but small industry, like Red's Headers is stuck.

But may I suggest that my original question has been addressed and that this thread has exhausted itself?
 
True, but it's okay...I've enjoyed the tangents and the discussions have most likely save me a couple hundred bucks by convincing me to just use my old manifolds. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.
 
That is sad news. I talked to Jim Davis a couple years back and they had labor problems at that time. Great product, and great company supporting it. Hope they can find a some good welders. If they have to pay more, their products are worth whatever they cost.
A side story about a mfg company I worked with in the US. They made jet engine and air frame components for GE. GE wanted to ship the job to China to cut costs, when the overseas folks looked at the prints, they said, "we can't make those pieces".
 
A couple things here guys. I have a set of knock off Fentons on my '41 Coupe. I had to grind the corner of the steering box to get clearance. The dipstick tube WILL NOT fit which is a pain is a neck. If I had it to do over again I would have used tubular headers. Much more user friendly.

Now I'd like to give my opinion on exhaust improvements on stock Flatheads. I'll start by stating that I have never built a Flathead Ford stock or otherwise without carefully removing restrictions from the exhaust ports. It is standard operating procedure for me. Haven't we all looked at water moving downstream in a creek or river? Ever notice how the water acts when it encounters a nook or cranny? It becomes turbulent and even flows backwards doesn't it? Well guess what, the same things happen inside our beloved Flatty's exhaust passages.

"But Mike who cares, we're only interested in putting around town, we don't care about racing or horsepower". Glad you mentioned that because I submit to you that our Flatty's will run cooler with more efficient exhaust. Imagine a Flathead Ford on a run stand with no exhaust manifolds at all.( I have actually done this) You fire her up to observe exhaust port behavior. I don't know the feet per second of the exhaust flow at various engine speeds but I can guarantee you that at idle it's quick, at 1200 rpm it's a massive and at 2000 rpm it's unreal. The flames come straight out of the center port and the flames from the end ports flow at 45 degrees or even less to the side of the engine block. The little pockets along the exhaust ports will cause flow eddys and thus hot spots straining the cooling system even more.

I feel that we can improve the ability for our engines to run hard and run cool by simply improving our exhaust flow. Now porting a block is not an option except during a rebuild but why on God's green Earth would we not perform a "bolt on" improvement by simply installing low restriction exhaust manifolds?

Furthermore it is my belief that whenever possible Ford Flathead exhaust headers should be "W" shaped with careful effort given to not trying to turn the supersonic exhaust charge in the end ports yet again right after it exits the block.

This is all my opinion but I have been rewarded with cool running engines. They have proven themselves on the road rather than a dyno which I do not own nor have access to at this point. Take this for what is worth.
 
In my book are the facts about the power and cooling capabilities of headers. The facts do NOT coordinate with the above opinion.
 
Henry floored,
On a stock flathead engine I don't think the exhaust manifolds are a restriction. If you look at the size of the port at its start right next to the guide, it's tiny this obviously hurts flow. Now look at the manifold end of the port, the exhaust gas slams into a wall at right angle, this must play havoc with any flow, let alone the violent exhaust gas bouncing a shock wave back up the port. It's gota turn 90 degrees towards the front or back of the engine (weather it's the rear or front port) then it hits another flat wall were the port comes out. Meanwhile trying to get through still very small opening through this series of turns, I can't get much knuckle through that gap.
After all this hurt through the block? Even the early smaller exhaust manifolds look like the wide open world to the exhaust gas.
This is why headers don't make a difference on a stock port flathead in my opinion.
Proper porting changes everything I believe, if you can get the exhaust gas out of the block nicely without all these 90 degree turns, then the manifold plays it's part, properly tuned for length would make a difference, ONLY if you get the exhaust out the block nicely.
On a stock flathead the porting in the block is the restriction not the manifolds.
I do agree with you on the W shape header being the best shape, but they are far to short to play a roll in tuned length.
Martin.
 
I'm in 100% agreement with Henry Floored.
I also have strong feelings about center exhaust port dividers
 
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Kahuna said:
I'm in 100% agreement with Henry Floored.
I also have strong feelings about center exhaust port dividers
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For or against dividers? Seems like a good idea, but all the dino results seem to show no or negative results. What's your take and what is it based on?
 
scooder said:
Henry floored,
On a stock flathead engine I don't think the exhaust manifolds are a restriction. If you look at the size of the port at its start right next to the guide, it's tiny this obviously hurts flow. Now look at the manifold end of the port, the exhaust gas slams into a wall at right angle, this must play havoc with any flow, let alone the violent exhaust gas bouncing a shock wave back up the port. It's gota turn 90 degrees towards the front or back of the engine (weather it's the rear or front port) then it hits another flat wall were the port comes out. Meanwhile trying to get through still very small opening through this series of turns, I can't get much knuckle through that gap.
After all this hurt through the block? Even the early smaller exhaust manifolds look like the wide open world to the exhaust gas.
This is why headers don't make a difference on a stock port flathead in my opinion.
Proper porting changes everything I believe, if you can get the exhaust gas out of the block nicely without all these 90 degree turns, then the manifold plays it's part, properly tuned for length would make a difference, ONLY if you get the exhaust out the block nicely.
On a stock flathead the porting in the block is the restriction not the manifolds.
I do agree with you on the W shape header being the best shape, but they are far to short to play a roll in tuned length.
Martin.
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Scooter it sounds like we agree. I have given all this quite a bit of thought over the years.

I would like to add a little bit more on this subject so here goes:

The Flathead Ford, to my knowledge is the only side valve "vee" type engine that runs exhaust ports through the block. If you look at early prototypes of Henry's venerable V8 you would notice that the end exhaust ports exited the block up high and were carried down by a bolt together exhaust manifold. All of the exhaust ports were connected down in the normal location by this muti piece exhaust manifold. In a very interesting side note these early prototypes had very graceful looking exhaust manifolds that featured gentle curves for good flow.

Now I have not had a chance to look at too many early blocks but I have had a couple apart. I noticed the edge of the end exhaust ports as they exit the block has a nice radius to it. That was not put there by accident. In later engines that became a sharp edge which hurts the cause. I can only assume as the demand for more production became evident, some attention for detail went by the wayside.

Looking at this even further still we come to the Lincoln 337 engine. Now that is a late design premium engine with no where near the need for high production numbers that the basic Flathead Ford had to adhere to. If you have one to look at take a gander down into the end exhaust ports. You will find beautifully design end port exhaust passages. They are curved and flow gently away all the way from the valve seat to the port exit. There are no sharp turns or harmful pockets of "no flow".

Next if you will, look at the French Flathead. This truly is a Flathead Ford engine built under license by the French Military. There were however many small or not so small differences in these engines. Looking into the end exhaust ports it's the same thing as the Lincoln. Smooth gently curved and efficient. I highly doubt the engineers responsible for making a military spec engine would make any change whatsoever if they didn't see some merit to it.


I am not claiming to be 100% correct I'm just saying that common sense has pushed me in a direction that engineers were doing long ago and not so long ago in the case of the French Flatty's. When I started doing the exhaust port mods I did not know of the early V8 exhaust port differences. Nor had I ever seen a Lincoln 337 apart or even hear of a French Flatty's. It's only when I discovered all these things that I had some outside satisfaction that I was on the right track.

Going back to the question. Do headers make a difference on a stock block? Well I can't argue with someone's dyno tests if I don't have numbers to back up my case. I do believe there has been tons of testing done on how exhaust back pressure affects engine behavior. I have never seen a heavy truck or auto based boat engine designed without high volume exhaust manifolds.

In closing let me say this. If you only drive your Ford on and off the trailer, around the fairgrounds or two miles away to the lawn chair car show then I would agree, stock manifolds are fine. If you would like to actually drive your car on primary roads, pull grades or maximize that sporty Flathead Ford feeling then I think decently designed exhaust headers are a plus. Unless the dyno can and has measured Flathead Ford performance under all different conditions and for waaay more than 15 sec dyno bursts I will remain skeptical.
 
First let me say i am not versed enough on flatheads to question anyone on this subject. I do know that ive been told the first thing to reduce engine heat is to put dual exhaust on. this come from men who have owned and run flatheads for many years. on the two i have put headers and dual exhaust it made a big difference in reducing the eng temp. I don"t worry about overheating anymore weather in town or out on the road. some times i think the eng would run better if it ran a little warmer.
 
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