Toyota started in KY. Honda is in OH. VW used to be in PA but left in the '80's (remember Gung HO, that was filmed at the shot down VW plant)
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Bob Drake - why overseas?
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Toyota started in KY. Honda is in OH. VW used to be in PA but left in the '80's (remember Gung HO, that was filmed at the shot down VW plant)
As individuals we have no control what our gov't does and where they borrow money from. That is why as individuals we can complain out it.
I personally buy American made products and support companies that make their products in the USA even if I do not need what they sell. I make it a point to tell others about products made in the USA. I have heard many times that it is hard to find things made in the USA but I think sometimes people just do not look. I have found many quality USA made products just by walking around a store. Many times these USA made products are the same price or even cheaper than the foreign made products sitting next to it on the shelf.
I work for one of the Big 3 and thanks to the decline of the American auto industry I have had to move 3 times (at my 4th plant now) to keep my job. Sadly many of the parts put into cars are a combination of USA and foreign parts, even the foreign brand vehicles assembled in the USA fall into this category. Here is the important thing to remember, American based companies pay taxes on their profits to the USA (GM, Ford Chrysler). Foreign based companies pay taxes to what ever country they are based out of (Toyota and Honda = Japan, VW = Germany, Kia and Hyundai = Korea). So even when you purchase a foreign nameplate car assembled in the USA you are still sending your money to another country. When you buy from the big 3 your money stays here. Also, no matter what car you have you have the potential to have issues with parts. it does not matter what company it comes from. One example is all of the recalls that were issued last year. Sometimes you can just get bad batches of parts that can be caused by human error or even the machine that replaced that person's two coworkers.
Mr. Drake mentioned that he has to have the running boards that are vulcanized (?) made in China as nobody in the use has the machines to do it (if i read it right). Why is it that the Chinese company was able to get their hands on this machine? They either had to buy it from a company that had one or they made it. the old machinery is out there. I have seen pictures of the press that Brookville uses to make parts, it is the most ancient presses I have ever seen but obviously someone out there had one to sell since Brookville was able to get it. There are tons of old factories out there with nobody in them full of machinery that could be making products or adapted to make similar products.
As a whole we need to bring manufacturing back to the USA. There are many products that can be made here affordably but profits are more important. In a neighboring town with a population of less than 5,000 there are 2 factories that have closed with another one on it's way out within 6 months. The one that will be closing is due to it's operations being consolidated with another facility. Most of the people will be general laborers but some of them will be skilled craftsmen that could make anything you would want if given the chance and the right equipment. This is why I find it hard to believe when someone says that they can not find anyone in the USA to make a item. It sounds more like an excuse.
I work for one of the Big 3 and thanks to the decline of the American auto industry I have had to move 3 times (at my 4th plant now) to keep my job. Sadly many of the parts put into cars are a combination of USA and foreign parts, even the foreign brand vehicles assembled in the USA fall into this category. Here is the important thing to remember, American based companies pay taxes on their profits to the USA (GM, Ford Chrysler). Foreign based companies pay taxes to what ever country they are based out of (Toyota and Honda = Japan, VW = Germany, Kia and Hyundai = Korea). So even when you purchase a foreign nameplate car assembled in the USA you are still sending your money to another country. When you buy from the big 3 your money stays here. Also, no matter what car you have you have the potential to have issues with parts. it does not matter what company it comes from. One example is all of the recalls that were issued last year. Sometimes you can just get bad batches of parts that can be caused by human error or even the machine that replaced that person's two coworkers.
Mr. Drake mentioned that he has to have the running boards that are vulcanized (?) made in China as nobody in the use has the machines to do it (if i read it right). Why is it that the Chinese company was able to get their hands on this machine? They either had to buy it from a company that had one or they made it. the old machinery is out there. I have seen pictures of the press that Brookville uses to make parts, it is the most ancient presses I have ever seen but obviously someone out there had one to sell since Brookville was able to get it. There are tons of old factories out there with nobody in them full of machinery that could be making products or adapted to make similar products.
As a whole we need to bring manufacturing back to the USA. There are many products that can be made here affordably but profits are more important. In a neighboring town with a population of less than 5,000 there are 2 factories that have closed with another one on it's way out within 6 months. The one that will be closing is due to it's operations being consolidated with another facility. Most of the people will be general laborers but some of them will be skilled craftsmen that could make anything you would want if given the chance and the right equipment. This is why I find it hard to believe when someone says that they can not find anyone in the USA to make a item. It sounds more like an excuse.
Jman:
Thank you posting this. I agree 100%. I truly believe that it can be done, though it may just be easier to ship the production overseas. May be easier, doesn't mean its right.
Tim
46ford
Senior Member
Only a fraction of the purchase of a car is profit. And US companies DON'T keep the profit here, don't kid yourselves. They have R&D centers located globally, and aggressively source globally. I've been in the industry for many years and this is NOT a new thing. One of the OEMs I used to work with was actively pursuing China sourcing 15 years ago. And as far as I know, the shareholders (many of them employees of said company) were good with the direction.
I still prefer, and always buy, my pickup trucks from Ford, GM, or Dodge but that is because they're tough vehicles and because my neighbors build them. I quit kidding myself about where the "profit goes" the first time I walked the aisles of an assembly plant and read the origin of manufacturer labels on the subassemblies. And I have been on LOTS of plants.
On the bright side, there is still a surprising amount of content in vehicles that is from plants I drive by and work in every day. The starter I just put in the minivan and the solenoid I put on the old Merc were US made. Lots of product from these molding and stamping plants even goes to VW and Mercedes in addition to Ford, Chrysler and other plants around the world. I rarely watch the news, however, so maybe my perspective from inside the industry is slanted
I still prefer, and always buy, my pickup trucks from Ford, GM, or Dodge but that is because they're tough vehicles and because my neighbors build them. I quit kidding myself about where the "profit goes" the first time I walked the aisles of an assembly plant and read the origin of manufacturer labels on the subassemblies. And I have been on LOTS of plants.
On the bright side, there is still a surprising amount of content in vehicles that is from plants I drive by and work in every day. The starter I just put in the minivan and the solenoid I put on the old Merc were US made. Lots of product from these molding and stamping plants even goes to VW and Mercedes in addition to Ford, Chrysler and other plants around the world. I rarely watch the news, however, so maybe my perspective from inside the industry is slanted
mrmoose
Senior Member
I've wanted to address this issue on many occasions but have stayed out of the fray in order to start trouble.
Bob, keep on doing what you're doing. Please do your best to keep the manufacturing done here, and where done elsewhere oversee it as best you can. I've purchsed a number of parts from you, and for the most part they were just fine. My '41 has your Chinese made grill on it (pictured below), and I can vouch for the quality...it is a superbly made piece that is at least as nice a reproduction part as I've ever seen. 'Clem' is far from perfect, but that grill is darn close!!
All of us would rather buy American made stuff, but who is willing to pay for it? When a worker overseas is willing to work for 90% less than an American worker, are you and I willing to pay 4 or 5 times more for stuff made here? A good example is the grill I just mentioned. To tool up and build that part here would end up with a grill costing well in excess of $2,000 I'll bet, and who among us can pay that? Not me for sure.
I like to wear jeans. I generally pay around $30 for a good pair. I have found a source that makes them here...comparable quality. $80/pair. I just can't afford it.
I think we all need to loosen up a bit and get used to the "global" economy...it's here whether we like it or not. We need to do our very best to encourage American companies to retain manufacuring facilities here where feasible, and stick to companies who at least engineer their products here where at all possible. We also need to encourage our vendors of early Ford products to do their very best for us, and work with them to keep our hobby alive.
So thank you Bob Drake. You may want to consider attending the "gathering of the faithful" get together of flathead enthusiasts here in Florida in early March...we're a captive market for your stuff.
And thank you to our other vendors as well. Without you, we would surely be in a jam.
Bob, keep on doing what you're doing. Please do your best to keep the manufacturing done here, and where done elsewhere oversee it as best you can. I've purchsed a number of parts from you, and for the most part they were just fine. My '41 has your Chinese made grill on it (pictured below), and I can vouch for the quality...it is a superbly made piece that is at least as nice a reproduction part as I've ever seen. 'Clem' is far from perfect, but that grill is darn close!!
All of us would rather buy American made stuff, but who is willing to pay for it? When a worker overseas is willing to work for 90% less than an American worker, are you and I willing to pay 4 or 5 times more for stuff made here? A good example is the grill I just mentioned. To tool up and build that part here would end up with a grill costing well in excess of $2,000 I'll bet, and who among us can pay that? Not me for sure.
I like to wear jeans. I generally pay around $30 for a good pair. I have found a source that makes them here...comparable quality. $80/pair. I just can't afford it.
I think we all need to loosen up a bit and get used to the "global" economy...it's here whether we like it or not. We need to do our very best to encourage American companies to retain manufacuring facilities here where feasible, and stick to companies who at least engineer their products here where at all possible. We also need to encourage our vendors of early Ford products to do their very best for us, and work with them to keep our hobby alive.
So thank you Bob Drake. You may want to consider attending the "gathering of the faithful" get together of flathead enthusiasts here in Florida in early March...we're a captive market for your stuff.
And thank you to our other vendors as well. Without you, we would surely be in a jam.
You raise an interesting point J Man.
The induvidual has little control over what his gov't does on his behalf. However you should be assurred that the gov't is borrowing on the best terms it can negotiate, also, no matter what flavour gov't is in power (or what they say to win power) the fact remains that until your gov't removes or reduces the subsidies it pays to citizens and corporations, you will continue to borrow.
For example I just returned from a holiday in New Zealand where the price of gas is not subsidised (but heavily taxed) we were paying NZD$1.99.3 per litre, OUCH! (And driving our 36 Pickup Truck). The equivalent in USD would be around $5.73.5 per gallon. How many Americans would be prepared to pay that amount for gas?
It is a political truism that should any American gov't attempt to increase the price of petrol by removal of the subsidy, that gov't will be voted out at the next election. So, by the unwillingness of the people to pay a reasonable price the gov't is required to borrow more money to support the subsidy. Of course the interest payments may eventually cost more than the subsidy thus you pay twice, once for the subsidy and once for the interest. Cheap gas? You decide.
Another interesting point made is the notion that we in western democracies are free to express our opinions and beliefs. Hence the US gov't is at the forefront of the promotion of democratic practices in other countries notably China and more recently the Middle East. (We won't mention US shenanigans in oil producing countries for the last sixty or so years where democracy was actively discouraged).
Perhaps one of the factors that will eventually change the dynamic between Chinese manufacture and western need is democracy. When the worker has rights of association and can bargain for a fair wage, his standard of living will rise, and so will the price. After China the last countries to be exploited by the west will be in Africa.
Eventually we will be having the same discussions as now, only we will be saying Sudan this and Ethiopia that. Nothing really changes...
Frank The Plumber
Well-known member
Ever notice how a $30 pair of jeans is so thin that a good sharp breeze goes right through them and chills your nummies? $80 pair don't do that. Ever notice that if you wear a $50 pair of boots made by a guy who wears a car tire for a shoe your back hurts? A set of Red Wings keep you pain free for years. You see that watch in your Grand pappys drawer, you give it a little wind and it keeps perfect time after 90 years. You can't buy that at the local store for $4.99. There is good reason that the landfills are loading up faster than ever, cheap crap. You would rather buy 10 watches over a 50 year span for $150 than One good watch for $50 for a life time, or have ten cheap watches so you can have one of every color than one quality one that you can be sure will be true. remember when a man had one good pen. Now we have 60, 99 cent pens, and none of them write worth a crap. I buy $300 boots, I have one pair for work, one dress pair of boots and a pair of Nunn Bush USA dress shoes. How the heck many shoes do I need, Am I Imelda or what? If you bought quality over quantity you would be able to have some good stuff.
46ford
Senior Member
Yes there are restrictions. A little behind the times, but hazardous substances are being regulated everywhere, especially where automotive parts are concerned. It's called IMDS, RoHS, or other things depending on what company you are with. Plating especially is affected by this.
Labor costs are the reasons machinery is being moved.
46ford
Senior Member
There is already quite a bit of manufacturing there.
Desire for more profits is why machinery goes to other countries, Labor is what they choose to attack as the reason.
http://www.pointerbrand.com/
http://www.kleinbros.com/bib_overalls_clothing.htm
Only a fraction of the purchase of a car is profit. And US companies DON'T keep the profit here, don't kid yourselves. They have R&D centers located globally, and aggressively source globally. I've been in the industry for many years and this is NOT a new thing. One of the OEMs I used to work with was actively pursuing China sourcing 15 years ago. And as far as I know, the shareholders (many of them employees of said company) were good with the direction.
I still prefer, and always buy, my pickup trucks from Ford, GM, or Dodge but that is because they're tough vehicles and because my neighbors build them. I quit kidding myself about where the "profit goes" the first time I walked the aisles of an assembly plant and read the origin of manufacturer labels on the subassemblies. And I have been on LOTS of plants.
On the bright side, there is still a surprising amount of content in vehicles that is from plants I drive by and work in every day. The starter I just put in the minivan and the solenoid I put on the old Merc were US made. Lots of product from these molding and stamping plants even goes to VW and Mercedes in addition to Ford, Chrysler and other plants around the world. I rarely watch the news, however, so maybe my perspective from inside the industry is slanted
I was talking more about the taxes that have to be paid on profits staying vs going elsewhere. When it comes to actual profits, yes they are spread around the world.
46ford
Senior Member
bgarrett
Senior Member
I bought a set of four stainless hubcaps out of Bob Drakes hands at a swap meet in Texas. When I tried them on the right front wheel of my truck, one fell off, one 'popped' on weakly and fell off when I drove it and two 'popped' on correctly and stayed on.
Notice that I tried all four on the SAME right front wheel.
When I contacted Bob Drake they gave me a big runaround, insisted that my wheels had to be the problem, told me that my genuine Ford rims had to be aftermarket and refused to make the sale right, They were totally unco-operative until I contacted the Better Business Bureau. One of the vendors that supplies Bob drake told me that Bob Drakes policy to to *Always Deny* any problem.
This is one of many problems Bob has given my orders over the years.
I am VERY glad that Bob is in business and is supplying us with the parts we need but your way of dealing with the people who made you rich is appalling.
Notice that I tried all four on the SAME right front wheel.
When I contacted Bob Drake they gave me a big runaround, insisted that my wheels had to be the problem, told me that my genuine Ford rims had to be aftermarket and refused to make the sale right, They were totally unco-operative until I contacted the Better Business Bureau. One of the vendors that supplies Bob drake told me that Bob Drakes policy to to *Always Deny* any problem.
This is one of many problems Bob has given my orders over the years.
I am VERY glad that Bob is in business and is supplying us with the parts we need but your way of dealing with the people who made you rich is appalling.
tom/illinois
Senior Member
Interesting point Chisel. Just business I suppose.
Frank:
I agree with this. I need to dress up for work. I've found that if you buy two-three high quality suits (USA-made), they last long as long as 6 cheaply made suits.
Also, $30 jeans don't need to be cheap. Somewhere I have a website that lists all American made products and where or links to buy them.
Some of the jeans are really high quality and sell for around the $30 mark as well.
I'll post it later.
Frank The Plumber
Well-known member
Ever wonder why? Why would a country that has such different ideologies even bother to lend you 59 cents? Well there is a reason, they can not feed themselves, Between the US, Brazil, Chile and Australia they import more than 80% of their food. As does most of South east Asia. Due to depleted fish stocks they are unable to get even enough protein. They import that too. The reasoning behind them subsidizing our fuel costs is simple, cheap fuel equates to cheap food. It takes a lot of corn, soy and rice to feed 1.3 billion people and yes we export rice to them, a lot of southern Illinois has rice fields not corn. The time is coming, hey it's here, This year, when global food supplies are not going to be able to keep up with demand. That is not a nice scenario. The price of food source materials on the global commodities index is set to double in the next 18 months. This nation only actually puts to good and proper use 40% of all food produced, the other 60 is by product or straight waste. I have a feeling sitting here a top my 14" Illinois top soil that puts out 145 bushels to the acre that we have a resource much more precious than any other thing next to pure water. I could go a long time between the consumption of a happy meal toy or a bezel for an old car but I need my breakfast or I'm a crumudgeon. Just a little food for thought.
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