Banjo with no gaskets

[Res731]

So today I took the banjo apart in order to inspect the bearings and gears. My plan was to just clean it up and use the same thickness gaskets in order to avoid all the steps required to set the pre load etc. To my surprise neither side had any gaskets to speak of.

Did Ford always use gaskets or could this have been rebuilt without them?

I'm still getting all the grease out to do an inspection (what a sticky mess that is) but I can tell that both grease seals at either end of the shafts are shot. The gears themselves appear to be in good shape. Once I get it cleaned up I will post some photos and more questions on condition.

Thanks,

Rudy

 

[larrys40]

Rudy ,
The important point is to have the correct preload in the carrier bearings .
At this point hat is what you need to check. Inspect and make sure your carrier bearings haven’t spun in the carrier half from the bearings being tight. If ok make sure you check preload. See where you are at as it is unusual to not need at least one gasket of one thickness or another.
This is actually a very important step.
Like Tom Endy I’ve rebuilt hundreds of rear axles albeit Tom has written an excellent article which should help you if you need. I believe searching in the forum will find his link easily.
I’m a firm believer in rtv upon assembly as it will help seal things well.
All the best
Larry shepard

 

[Res731]

Hi Larry

I checked both carrier bearings and they seem tight on the axle, at least I can't pull them off by hand. Since this axle was functional I will assume that means the carrier didn't lock up when assembled as per Tom Endy instructions.

Any idea if this means I need to put a shim behind the bearings, or would new races and bearings be enough?

Rudy

 

[Joe K]

There was a change in the trumpets/pumpkin which changed the gasket requirement. This change is addressed not specifically but in the procedure in Tom Endy's comprehensive article.

You may have a rear assembly "cobbled together from mis-matched parts" into which the assembler got forced into no gasket as a way to get it together/get a pre-load/get match-marks (blue die check), all part of getting a rear end assembled half way correctly - or you may have even less than that.

You'll need a micrometer to figure out what parts exactly you have. (Page 382 Service Bulletins.)

Joe K

 

[rotorwrench]

Someone in the past may have had the same idea as you did about doing a refresher on the axle assembly. Bearings can wear, housings can be off on their machining, and restoration bearings may have been installed at some time that were not quite right.

Shims are available for the where the cups seat in the housings but it may just need the correct bearings. Folks have been having troubles with the pinion location on the later banjo axles due to some of the "new" ring & pinion sets being a bit off. Repro bearings can be problematic as well.

 

[larrys40]

Rudy,
Sounds like and hopefully so your carriers are good.
I would agree that the best results will be with Timken bearings and races. Not sure what’s Kind of shape they are in and know they are not cheap but I would at least do the carrier ones. I usually start with a.010 gasket on each side to see where things are at. After having done many I vary from there as needed.
I think you will find with new Bearings and races on the carrier and installed correctly you should be more aligned with a normal gasket thickness.. also, take a flat file around the housing bolt lip to cover any high spots on mating surfaces.
Keep us posted .
Larry

 

[Jim Brierley]

The outer seals face outward in order to keep the grease being put into the wheel bearing area goes where it belongs. Some think they are to keep oil in the center section, not true

 

[Res731]

Here are some pictures. The races have a few tiny pits on them but otherwise look ok. The bearings have no pits but feel loose in the cages

What are your thoughts, do these need replaced? I don’t have a press so I’d have to find a machibe shop to help. I’m in Cleveland area if there is anyone with experience.

I need to shrink the picture size first

Rudy

 

[Res731]

Pictures

 

[Res731]

A few more

 

[Joe K]

The pitting in the bearing races is "brinelling" which is surface fatigue caused by too much rolling. Rollers can brinnell, but more likely they "split" or end up chipped on the corners of the rollers (usually the large end.)

I would replace the races certainly. This would be Timken 28317

The rollers are Timken 28156

The double race is Timken 28314XD

I have had very good luck examining Ebay using the Timken part numbers. One has to be careful because a lot of "interchange" bearings on Ebay mention the interchange number and yet they're not Timken. Still, one can find a new Timken bearing in the orange and black box for a good buy. But shop around. You'll find LOTS in the typical price range of $29 to $43.

It took me half a year or so before I had a full set at "best price."

Big believer in Timken bearings. Their quality is unsurpassed in my book.

One doesn't go into the rear end all that much and a bad bearing can raise heck with all the other moving parts (those flakes of metal have to go SOMEWHERE - and that somewhere is the rest of the assembly.)

And tearing down a rear end is WORK - and I don't like repeating it.

Joe K

 

[rotorwrench]

It's hard to beat the original Ford script Timken bearings if you can find them. The next best is Timken brand. New cones and cups are still out there. I've seen a lot of home made tools to get around the use of a press but they are usually copies of patented tools made for the process. A driver tube can be fabricated to drive new bearings into place or a jack screw set up can be fabricated. You might check out some of the articles for rear axle rebuild that are out there on the net. Some have very good ideas about how a home DIY guy can do the job more easily.

 

[Res731]

I saw one guy using a torch to heat the bearing (expand it) and then dropped it on. I'm thinking thats a bit too much heat.

 

[katy]

I saw one guy using a torch to heat the bearing (expand it) and then dropped it on. I'm thinking thats a bit too much heat.

A 100 watt light bulb works good for heating bearings to expand them. Takes a while, but works.
I'd definitely replace those bearings and races while it's apart.

 

[Res731]

Just got to make sure its an incandescent bulb, the new LED ones don't heat up at all - LOL.

 

[Railcarmover]

Never replace cups (races) without replacing cones (rollers).Dont assume preload is correct on an assembled axle.

 

[Terry NJ]

Are those steel chips? Where are they coming from? Ring and or pinion? Bearings and or races? All of the above? Is the rear getting loud? Look I don't want to spend your money for you, but to rebuild your rear will cost around $800, Thats new bearings new seals and a new ring and pinion I did mine last yearly I changed to a 3.54 ratio. One of the best things I ever did. The car is wonderful now where it was just OK before.
Terry

 

[Res731]

Another question. I am going to put in new races an bearings. I figure I can install them easy enough but installing, checking , removing etc will be a bit of a challenge. Since there were no gaskets on banjo , can anyone advise if I should shim the carrier bearings right from the get go? I know best is trial and error but without all the pullers, presses etc I'd like to at least start with your recommendations. Is there any way to tell based on the as-is or do measurements ?

 

[Joe K]

I would do a complete tear down/cleaning/reassembly according to Tom Endy's excellent online write-up. Assume you have only stock parts and re-assemble normally.

You can do some ahead to see what the future brings as in know which of the two trumpet housing variants you have (i.e. my Service Bulletin reference) but be aware that you may find something "out of whack."

Maybe somebody has modified the carrier? Maybe bearing defect?

Don't let the difficulties in removing/replacing bearings daunt you - it is not that hard. I did my first rear end at about age 21 minus the neat pullers and presses and other toys I have now.

You may learn how to "walk" a race out of a housing using a punch on alternate sides - you may even learn to install a new race (carefully lest you chip it) by the same method. I used a piece of 1" pipe to "catch" alternate edges of the trumpet housing bearing races and "walk" them from their seats.

And sharp chisels can get "behind" a roller bearing & cage to walk that off similarly.

Just take your time. Don't hesitate to pick up some Harbor Freight pullers in a couple of sizes. And a stout woodworking bench vise can "press" on a lot within its capability.

Even large sockets and all-thread/nuts have been used - ARE being used in my shop. I have a couple of perhaps 6" square plates 3/4" thick with a 3/4" hole bored in the center of each. With that and fine thread all-thread I can do most ANY bearing/press fit.

Get ingenious.

And have fun!

And take your time. Beating it senseless in desperation usually doesn't work. And is a good way to get hurt.

Joe K

 

[Res731]

I used a long pipe behind the axle races and knocked them out. Used a chisel on the pinion race. Only thing there is I had small dings now at the end where the race seats. I ground down the high spots.

Carrier bearings were real easy as they had spun. Started with a screw driver and the a couple taps with the chisel to clear the lip on the carrier and they came right out.