Bad weekend

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I know that I am jumping the gun here but I will see where it goes through my insurance (Hagerty) when her insurance company (State Farm) is ultimately responsible.
The gas tank survived very well, it was leaking a little out the cap when on its side. I asked the firemen to help me push it back on 4 wheels to eliminate the fuel leaking on the hot exhaust manifold and they refused. I went to the curb and recruited 3 guys and we pushed it back on 4 wheels right in front of them. Im not sure why they didn’t want it back on its wheels.
I was afraid this body is too far gone for repairs but wanted to ask others opinion. I’ll keep everyone abreast of how this turns out thru the insurance company.
This has been in my family since 1968, my father and grandfather rebuilt it in 1970, even had original Babbitt repoured and I have the receipts. Such a sad day.
Greg

Greg, unfortunately I have quite a bit of experience with collision repair on Model-As. None of this is aimed at you, but this is the proper time to revisit some of this with your readers.

Greg was smart to have collector vehicle insurance. In ALL cases, you must have Stated Value insurance. Additionally, when there are circumstances like Greg's where there is sentimental value attached to the vehicle, an add-on rider called Cherished Value is a must also.

When you have a Stated Value policy, you must have the value high enough to pay for proper repairs (-actually repair or restoration costs and not just a replacement of another vehicle). This is a HUGE must. So often, low stated values by the owner are done as a method to save their premium costs. In the case of Greg's Coupe, the stated value should likely be $40k-$50k. In the case of this crash, because the fault is not related to the Model-A owner, he files the claim with his own insurance and his carrier (Hagerty) then subrogates against State Farm. Again, if Cherished Value is a part of Greg's policy, he pays $1.00 and retains ownership of the damaged vehicle without any branding of the Title.

If the Model-A owner does not have Stated Value, -or has the value of their vehicle under-valued, then State Farm uses random vehicles as comparables to establish a value of the damaged vehicle. Based on what I am seeing solely from the pictures, -and knowing what I know about State Farm, they are likely going to value your damaged vehicle in the $7k-$8k range. Over and over again, I have seen this where the adjusters are clueless, and State Farm's legal team have the verbiage in their contract on their side. Maybe now is the time to 'lawyer-up' and file suit against the other motorist to cover your losses??

 

[Oldbluoval]

I agree and yield to Brent on this…..
Even if stated value or replacement cost is in the policy it would be valued at comparables. Maybe max $25k? To restore that unit you’re likely approaching $75k plus.

 

[Benson]

Re: Bad weekend - Insurance HINTS - problems - Stated Value- Cherished Value

Brent,

Now that Hagerty and State Farm are partners does this fact change what to watch for in this accident case and similar situations?

Thanks

 

[Colorado Greg]

I have the agreed upon value at 15k (recommended by Hagerty when quoting) with no Cherished value rider (didn’t know it existed).
It’s looking like I have this car under valued per Brent. How could State Farm value/pay the vehicle at 7-8k when the agreed value is 15k. Would Hagerty make up the difference between what State Farm will pay and the amount insured for or do I need to “lawyer up” for the difference?
This is all new to me and I now have State Farm trying to contact me before Hagerty has even acknowledged the claim.
I’ll see where this goes, thanks for everyones advice!
Greg

After rereading Brent’s reply, ignore the part about State Farm paying 7-8k and “lawyering up” for the difference as I have agreed upon value of 15k.

 

[Jim/GA]

Greg, you will get your stated value and the car will be declared a "total loss" because the cost to repair it back to the condition that it was in before the accident would exceed your stated value.

You will get the stated value from Hagerty and Hagerty will recover it from State Farm. You do not get involved, except to turn over the vehicle to Hagerty or their agent for disposal.

After you get the check from Hagerty, you take your stated value money and go buy another Model A. Good luck finding such a nice vehicle for the stated value.

This should be a lesson to all that you probably have your stated value too low. Think about how you would replace your vehicle if something happened to it, where that new vehicle would come from, and what it would cost. Would it have as good an engine? Upholstery? Paint? Tires?

Every Model A I have ever purchased needed a bunch of work done to it, even when the seller insisted it was in great condition. "You can drive it home!" Right... but when I got it home (trailer, thank you) I discovered no oil in the transmission and it had a burnt exhaust valve because the machine work was done wrong and the valve never seated properly... When I called the seller and asked about the transmission oil, he said he had never checked it in his 7 years of ownership.

So even when you go buy that beautiful replacement vehicle, hold back some of that stated value money for the repairs that the new vehicle will need. Electrical work, engine work, new tires, new brakes. Seriously.

I'll say it again, guys: your stated value amount is too low. Bump it up, pay the premium.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I agree and yield to Brent on this…..
Even if stated value or replacement cost is in the policy it would be valued at comparables. Maybe max $25k? To restore that unit you’re likely approaching $75k plus.

Bill, actually the Stated Value portion of a policy out-trumps using comparable replacement cost values. What we are seeing is the threshold for establishing a Total Loss claim is 80% of 80%. The repair costs must not exceed 80% of 80% of Fair Market Valuation. If it does, then the vehicle is considered a Total Loss. Using Greg' Coupe as an example, it is believable that his Coupe would take over 1,000 hours to repair plus parts & materials. With professional shop rates exceeding $100 per man-hour, we quickly see that exceeds the costs of their 80/80 gauge.

So, the quick way to alleviate all of the stress of the Insurance company establishing a (low-ball) value is if Greg has a policy with his insurance carrier for an agreed amount (i.e.: 'Stated Value') of $50,000 and has the Cherished Value added to his policy. At the point where the vehicle was considered a Total Loss, the Claims Department with the underwriter of the Hagerty policy would issue Greg a check for $49,999.00 along with any peripheral expenses such as recovery, towing, storage, etc. The $1.00 difference would be retained by the underwriter as a part of the Cherished Value portion of the policy, and Greg keeps his Model-A without any damage history on his Title.

Brent,

Now that Hagerty and State Farm are partners does this fact change what to watch for in this accident case and similar situations?

Thanks

As I understand it, they are still two different entities. This has been going on for several years where Hagerty has just partnered with State Farm's agents as a method to broaden their customer base.

It probably is also worth noting that Hagerty uses underwriters that actually do the insuring for them. My shop insurance is through Hagerty however Penn National is the underwriter, and my collector vehicle insurance policies are through Hagerty however Essentia Insurance actually covers all of my collector vehicles.

 

[nkaminar]

Sorry Greg. So glad you were not seriously hurt.

There are lots of lawyers that specialize in accidents. I would advise finding one soon. The sooner the better. You can add on any emotional damage to the claim. There may also be physical damage that will appear later. Replacing or repairing the car is only part of the equation.

I see people running red lights and stop signs all the time. Intersections are a big hazard. I almost got T-boned by a semi truck that ran a red light at 55 mph.

 

[Keith True]

I doubt it.In the body shops it is a daily occurance to see both parties in an accident have the same carrier.In 01 I got lightly rear ended in my Ford Ranger by a guy that had the same insurance carrier as I did.My insurance guy said,this will be easy,they won't bother to argue with themselves.It was nothing.Before my dad retired he wouldn't write estimates for home repairs for either State Farm or Travellers.A little shop here in town wouldn't write body damage repair estimates for Geico or Allstate.And,he was pretty outspoken to State Farm reps when he wrote anything for their clients.Out of all the Hagerty claims I've seen to a couple of old car shops in my area,I only saw one problem.And,that was due to an unreasonable customer demand,wanting things fixed for free that had nothing to do with the accident.When I lost a coupe in my house fire the Hagerty rep came over,but couldn't get within a hundred feet of the car because the muddy soot was ankle deep.He didn't need to get close to that one to decree it a total loss.All he asked was if I had lost any spare parts,(yes,a huge amount),and if regular mail was OK or did I need the check overnighted.Then he told me to call Hagerty and up the values on my other cars,as thay had not been done in years.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I have the agreed upon value at 15k (recommended by Hagerty when quoting) with no Cherished value rider (didn’t know it existed).
It’s looking like I have this car under valued per Brent. How could State Farm value/pay the vehicle at 7-8k when the agreed value is 15k. Would Hagerty make up the difference between what State Farm will pay and the amount insured for or do I need to “lawyer up” for the difference?

This is all new to me and I now have State Farm trying to contact me before Hagerty has even acknowledged the claim.

This is why we ALL need to discuss this. Unfortunately, others are likely going to be educated however at your expense.

Values need to be reviewed and adjust annually or biennially with your insurer to adjust for inflation.

Greg, the reason you need to 'lawyer up' in your deal is two-fold from my vantage point. You were WAY undervalued with your policy. Secondly, if either insurance company issues a settlement check, they are going to want ownership of your Coupe because they will sell your Model-A to the salvage company to help them recover some of their payout losses. It used to be that policy holders would often "buy back" their damaged vehicle from their insurance company. Today, most insurance companies have a contract with a salvage company that specifically prohibits this practice. Large salvage firms (-such as CoPart and others) agree to take all of the salvage vehicles no matter how damaged (burned) or how repairable. They view Insurance companies selling vehicles back to their policy holder as taking away their profit margins, and so the Insurance company just needs all their claims to go away, so they no longer allow this practice. Hence, the reason for Cherished value.

Regarding State Farm calling you directly, that is the way it is supposed to happen. As soon as you have the Police report in-hand, you can contact your Hagerty representative to file your claim. As long as the Police report is clear that you did not have fault in the incident, there should be no penalty of you filing a claim on your own policy.

FWIW, the State Farm adjuster with be the one that comes to do the evaluation and provide the SF claims agent with the report. If State Farm were to provide a settlement amount that exceeds the $15k of your Stated Value, then you would accept their money. Otherwise, you will receive your money from Hagerty and they will subrogate with State Farm to recover their losses. The best thing you can do at this moment is start finding other restored Model-A Coupes that have sold to use as a market comparison. It does not matter the location (-within reason) but you need to be able to prove that the fair market value exceeds what they are offering you as a settlement. Providing receipts during the restoration rarely adds any significant value to the overall vehicle value unless it is a professional restoration, ...and even then it is not much. For example, if you were to say that you just spent $1,000.00 on buying & installing new tires & tubes, the view is that is a routine maintenance item and does not add value. If you can provide receipts for a $100k restoration, that does not establish a vehicle value of $100k, however it might add another $10k to the overall $$ amount they are offering.

 

[Colorado Greg]

Thanks so much Brent, I hate learning things the hard way.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I doubt it.In the body shops it is a daily occurance to see both parties in an accident have the same carrier.In 01 I got lightly rear ended in my Ford Ranger by a guy that had the same insurance carrier as I did.My insurance guy said,this will be easy,they won't bother to argue with themselves.It was nothing.Before my dad retired he wouldn't write estimates for home repairs for either State Farm or Travellers.A little shop here in town wouldn't write body damage repair estimates for Geico or Allstate.And,he was pretty outspoken to State Farm reps when he wrote anything for their clients.Out of all the Hagerty claims I've seen to a couple of old car shops in my area,I only saw one problem.And,that was due to an unreasonable customer demand,wanting things fixed for free that had nothing to do with the accident.When I lost a coupe in my house fire the Hagerty rep came over,but couldn't get within a hundred feet of the car because the muddy soot was ankle deep.He didn't need to get close to that one to decree it a total loss.All he asked was if I had lost any spare parts,(yes,a huge amount),and if regular mail was OK or did I need the check overnighted.Then he told me to call Hagerty and up the values on my other cars,as thay had not been done in years.

A couple of points to note in this.

State Farm & Hagerty are two separate entities in this claim. If the same Insurer held policies for both vehicle owners (-unlikely in Greg's situation) then there likely would be no subrogation however there still could be arguing with the Claimant against the party at fault.

In Greg's situation, all the Adjuster will do is provide photo documentation back to State Farm's Claims agent along with an opinion if it is a Total Loss. The Claims Agent will be the one that establishes a value and will compare that to the Adjustor's opinion of repair costs. There is not a need in providing a written Estimate. As a sidenote, I feel very comfortable is saying that my shop could very capably return Greg's Coupe to a condition equal to, -or better than what it was 5 seconds prior to impact. A realistic armchair-appraisal from us would be around 1200 hours of labor and around $20-$25k of Parts/Materials.

One final thing that needs to be understood. Greg does not need to accept State Farm's offer of settlement. The liability falls onto the person who was driving the vehicle that collided with Greg's Coupe. Typically we all have insurance coverage to protect us in events such as this where we make a mistake and cause harm to others. Just as in the case where Greg was under-insured, often times we can be underinsured on protecting us from financial liability towards others. Too little in that regard might be similar to not having any insurance if you are forced by Court settlement to pay more than your Insurer agreed to pay by your policy contractual agreement.

Thanks so much Brent, I hate learning things the hard way.

You are welcome. You are also welcome to contact me vis phone however I am recovering from a quasi-Stroke, so understanding me might be difficult.

 

[ModelA29]

Face up to the fact that it's a total. Start NOW getting the pre crash condition details down on paper - any recent pics and service/parts costs etc. Start looking at comparable cars and what they cost. You'll need to counter the junk ones selling for $5,000 that the insurance will want to use as comparisons. Get 3 estimates - if you can even find a body shop willing to take on the task. You are not "fine" I'm certain that once the adrenaline wore off you woke up sore and achy the next few days. The insurance will tuck a hundred dollars or so into their settlement offer to get you to sign away any further compensation for injury. Don't let your nostalgia for the car offer too much for the salvage. I wouldn't even broach that question until the settlement has been reached. They may see your wanting it as it having some hidden value that they didn't see in their appraisal. Depending on who your insurance company is and if you had a stated value policy you may end up making a claim on your own insurance for max pay out and they in turn will go after the other company to get their money back.

 

[ModelA29]

..... A realistic armchair-appraisal from us would be around 1200 hours of labor and around $20-$25k of Parts/Materials.

One final thing that needs to be understood. Greg does not need to accept State Farm's offer of settlement. The liability falls onto the person who was driving the vehicle that collided with Greg's Coupe.

Even with a low shop rate of $100 hr that's $120,000 plus the parts/materials. Now you're into Town Car values.


I was hit by an under insured driver. What a nightmare. Once my attorney and I went to the deposition they offered to settle for policy limits. I still lost a few grand. The alternative was to sue the loser who was driving a borrowed car and then try to collect from a seldom employed minimum wage worker.


I have Hagerty and each year I get messages from them on trending values and if I should up the value on the 4 cars we've insured. We did the cherished salvage on two of them. The wife's 2004 Tbird and our T because of it's Riley 4 port B engine.

 

[JRrev]

This post has been interesting to me. For as long as I can remember, Agreed Value was supposedly what was best. If your insurance company "agreed" to a given number, that is what you got. Stated value was what to avoid. You paid your premiums on the stated value but if you were in an accident, the adjuster could/would arrive at a lower number comparable and that was what you got. I suppose their were law suits to try to get the stated value. Don't know how often that worked favorably but it either entailed legal expenses or another miserable step.

 

[gdmn852]

Hello,sorry to hear of your accident, the main concern is that are ok . I have heard Hagarty seems to work with there customers, as being able to buy back the car. Might want to assess it , perhaps salvage the running gear, once you feel comfortable. Been in a few wrecks with much newer cars took me awhile to get back to feeling normal, if there is a thing with me ! Best of luck.

 

[JayJay]

So a question that occurred to me: if you have the Cherished Value option which allows you to retain the vehicle, does it pick up a "Salvage" title (in those states that have that) if you have to invoke that?

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

So a question that occurred to me: if you have the Cherished Value option which allows you to retain the vehicle, does it pick up a "Salvage" title (in those states that have that) if you have to invoke that?

Nope. When we had the flood here a year or so ago, my daughter's Model-T Speedster was in one of my lower buildings that was right next to the river. This river is controlled by the TVA, and since 1912 when they built the dam, it has never been out of its banks, ...until this time. When the water finally receded, her car's engine had river silt packed around the spark plugs. I had $25k of insurance on it. An adjuster came out to document it, He asked me what it would cost to fix it. I told him I ran the numbers and it was over $20k for parts & labor. I gave him those figures on a spreadsheet, he took a picture of the license plate, the VIN, and the water line still on the side of the body. They wired $24,999.00 into my bank account two days later. The Claims agent called me to verify that I had received the money, and then rewrote coverage on the same vehicle for $10k. The Title never left the safe, and no branding whatsoever on the Title to know it was ever totaled. A car collector is foolish not to pay the few extra dollars annually just to have Cherished Value added to their policy.

 

[al's28/33]

good to hear Greg is OK, and maybe some insurance payout eventually, what about the stop sign runner??? will there be legal action and any financial recovery from them??

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

This post has been interesting to me. For as long as I can remember, Agreed Value was supposedly what was best. If your insurance company "agreed" to a given number, that is what you got. Stated value was what to avoid. You paid your premiums on the stated value but if you were in an accident, the adjuster could/would arrive at a lower number comparable and that was what you got. I suppose their were law suits to try to get the stated value. Don't know how often that worked favorably but it either entailed legal expenses or another miserable step.

Roger, you may be correct in that. Maybe the proper term is Agreed value. Not sure if the two are one in the same. I just always "state" the $$ value I want my car to be insured for, and if something happens where it is a total loss claim, that amount I told them would be what I would get paid.

 

[Colorado Greg]

Hagerty has already stated to me a buy back option is on the table but it’s only words so far.
The stop sign runner got a traffic ticket before she left the scene. The State Patrol told me what the offense was but I can’t remember now. She also admitted fault to the State Patrol on scene, no additional financial penalties or recovery as far as I can tell, it’s all insurance from here out.