Babbitt or inserts
- Thread starter Shoat
- Start date
Shoat - It will be interesting what is stated and why. I look forward to the replies to this thread.
I have an engine that has both; the mains are inserts, and the rods are babbitt. It is a long story how it ended up that way.
The mains were done by Rich at AER, Skokie, IL. A very professional individual, and excellent mechanic. I told him I would be using babbitt rods, and he had no problem with that. There were other individuals who had done the same.
There are merits and drawbacks to either inserts and babbitt, and I think you will find they are about equal. The main thing is to take care of them in the way it is recommended.
My thoughts are inserts do not require periodic adjustment, but that babbitt is more forgiving when the bearing is going bad.
I am sure others with have many thoughts and opinions.
Ron/IA
I have an engine that has both; the mains are inserts, and the rods are babbitt. It is a long story how it ended up that way.
The mains were done by Rich at AER, Skokie, IL. A very professional individual, and excellent mechanic. I told him I would be using babbitt rods, and he had no problem with that. There were other individuals who had done the same.
There are merits and drawbacks to either inserts and babbitt, and I think you will find they are about equal. The main thing is to take care of them in the way it is recommended.
My thoughts are inserts do not require periodic adjustment, but that babbitt is more forgiving when the bearing is going bad.
I am sure others with have many thoughts and opinions.
Ron/IA
Shoat,
I would agree with Ron..... Doing an occasional rebuild myself pouring Babbitt and line boring.... and having worked on many Model A's, and adjusted many mains and rods, this is my take from my experience...
Babbitted engines have been running for years.... and like any engine..do fine under good care and maintenance... I would agree that babbitted engines are a well performing engine, done well, maintained well, ,they can give good service for just as long as inserted engines for life ( as related to the rest of the engine). If there's a problem there's a clearance issue from use/wear it can be corrected fairly easily.
Also... if there is a problem that develops.. or noise from the problem.. it will usually get you home at the end of the day. Inserts may not.
Inserts... I really don't have as much experience with them except I've installed a number of AER's engines and as always.. Rich does top notch work... they all have ran well and have had NO problems. However, none of them have had a trip to Alaska. I recently read the threads about the insert failure on the Alaskan trip... In looking at the photo of the insert I do have to think that if it was a babbitted rod it could have been corrected and ran home just fine. I believe the insert bearing shell is much harder thus less tolerant to dirt/anomalies, and certainly clearance. So it will break or develop an unforgiveness much sooner. Babbitt can always be poured and bored, inserts must be "available" and produced. I hope the same ones available now and being used are still made by the same folks 20 years from now if you need one for your already inserted engine... I would hope... that's a big "Hope" that they will be. When those folks retire/choose to no longer produce/supply.. what happens then? Something to ponder on the barn... or for those that are in the know on that please chime in. Having said all that inserts are generally a long life bearing cared for and not abused. They are easy to replace, and will give great service. Cost on doing them in the "A" has come down since availability and acceptance/demand has risen. I generally tend to think that the inserts handle the higher more constant RPM's of todays highway driving better than Babbitt as compared to yesterdays speeds. Our roads are much better today, highway travel is very common with the "A" which depending on your drive ratios can result in more constant higher RPM's than what was commonplace years ago.
I know I haven't "helped" the debate... but just relaying my experience to you on doing service and restoration on the A's.
Whatever way you choose, PLEASE CHANGE THE OIL at reasonable frequent intervals.. it's cheap insurance.... You're engine rebuilder will happily warrant your engine if you do. If you don't I would think they would not... just ask them.
Larry Shepard
St Charles, MO
I would agree with Ron..... Doing an occasional rebuild myself pouring Babbitt and line boring.... and having worked on many Model A's, and adjusted many mains and rods, this is my take from my experience...
Babbitted engines have been running for years.... and like any engine..do fine under good care and maintenance... I would agree that babbitted engines are a well performing engine, done well, maintained well, ,they can give good service for just as long as inserted engines for life ( as related to the rest of the engine). If there's a problem there's a clearance issue from use/wear it can be corrected fairly easily.
Also... if there is a problem that develops.. or noise from the problem.. it will usually get you home at the end of the day. Inserts may not.
Inserts... I really don't have as much experience with them except I've installed a number of AER's engines and as always.. Rich does top notch work... they all have ran well and have had NO problems. However, none of them have had a trip to Alaska. I recently read the threads about the insert failure on the Alaskan trip... In looking at the photo of the insert I do have to think that if it was a babbitted rod it could have been corrected and ran home just fine. I believe the insert bearing shell is much harder thus less tolerant to dirt/anomalies, and certainly clearance. So it will break or develop an unforgiveness much sooner. Babbitt can always be poured and bored, inserts must be "available" and produced. I hope the same ones available now and being used are still made by the same folks 20 years from now if you need one for your already inserted engine... I would hope... that's a big "Hope" that they will be. When those folks retire/choose to no longer produce/supply.. what happens then? Something to ponder on the barn... or for those that are in the know on that please chime in. Having said all that inserts are generally a long life bearing cared for and not abused. They are easy to replace, and will give great service. Cost on doing them in the "A" has come down since availability and acceptance/demand has risen. I generally tend to think that the inserts handle the higher more constant RPM's of todays highway driving better than Babbitt as compared to yesterdays speeds. Our roads are much better today, highway travel is very common with the "A" which depending on your drive ratios can result in more constant higher RPM's than what was commonplace years ago.
I know I haven't "helped" the debate... but just relaying my experience to you on doing service and restoration on the A's.
Whatever way you choose, PLEASE CHANGE THE OIL at reasonable frequent intervals.. it's cheap insurance.... You're engine rebuilder will happily warrant your engine if you do. If you don't I would think they would not... just ask them.
Larry Shepard
St Charles, MO
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
Here are some facts, not opinions.
Either system will work for tens of thousands of miles when done properly.
Some shops have a good reputation, a lot are more questionable. You pay more and expect a long wait for shops with a good track record.
Babbitt, as Ford did it, would only need a few tightening jobs over the life of the motor. Ford only use a small shim pack of .002 or .003" as I recall. You would expect a properly taken care of engine to go upwards of 80,000 miles on the original babbitt. I believe 50,000 was very common.
Babbitt was designed to work with dirt. The Model A engine was designed to work with dirt cause that was what you got in the 1930's.
Here is the biggest difference between the two types of bearings.
Babbitt tends to fail gracefully. It will tend to let you know it is sick and will give you many miles of hobbling home. When babbitt fails the parts are not likely to need more than a re-babbitting.
When inserts fail it is likely to be sudden and require a tow home. You will have a higher probability extreme damage to engine parts. If the mains go then you may have to throw away the block.
I believe that best sums of the difference between bearing types. Either will work fine and last way longer then you are likely to own the car, IF they work is done properly.
The sad part is the work is frequently done poorly.
The person doing the work needs to be talking like the Model A engine is a precision manufactured device, cause it was precision manufactured.
Personally, I would seek out a guy with a stellar reputation for babbitting. Poured bearings for the mains are the best choice because they are less likely to leave you stranded and are happier with dirt. I think the new insert rods from the guy in Illinois may be an advantage over new re-babbitted rods. Finding good rods that are properly babbitted and will have tight weight at each end is very hard. You need a good quality shop with the right equipment.
Either system will work for tens of thousands of miles when done properly.
Some shops have a good reputation, a lot are more questionable. You pay more and expect a long wait for shops with a good track record.
Babbitt, as Ford did it, would only need a few tightening jobs over the life of the motor. Ford only use a small shim pack of .002 or .003" as I recall. You would expect a properly taken care of engine to go upwards of 80,000 miles on the original babbitt. I believe 50,000 was very common.
Babbitt was designed to work with dirt. The Model A engine was designed to work with dirt cause that was what you got in the 1930's.
Here is the biggest difference between the two types of bearings.
Babbitt tends to fail gracefully. It will tend to let you know it is sick and will give you many miles of hobbling home. When babbitt fails the parts are not likely to need more than a re-babbitting.
When inserts fail it is likely to be sudden and require a tow home. You will have a higher probability extreme damage to engine parts. If the mains go then you may have to throw away the block.
I believe that best sums of the difference between bearing types. Either will work fine and last way longer then you are likely to own the car, IF they work is done properly.
The sad part is the work is frequently done poorly.
The person doing the work needs to be talking like the Model A engine is a precision manufactured device, cause it was precision manufactured.
Personally, I would seek out a guy with a stellar reputation for babbitting. Poured bearings for the mains are the best choice because they are less likely to leave you stranded and are happier with dirt. I think the new insert rods from the guy in Illinois may be an advantage over new re-babbitted rods. Finding good rods that are properly babbitted and will have tight weight at each end is very hard. You need a good quality shop with the right equipment.
I agree with Ron's final words above. I bought my first A in 1951 and never had a problem with the babbitts. Some adjustment necessary, so what. The car is over 80, I need some adjustment at that age. Also we don't drive them as hard as I did at 16 years old. My vote is for babbitt, it will always get you home without a spun barring.
bettlesr
Senior Member
My new engine is much the same as afuncar's except I have a full pressure oiling system and a .100 overbore with a winfield 7:1 head.
When I first got my car, the engine had been rebuilt about 50 years before with babbit. I dropped the pan and checked the clearance with plastigauge. This left good size dents in the babbit. When this engine finally let go, it went from running quitely to sounding like a small sledge hammer bouncing around inside. After I had it towed hame, I took off the oil pan and found the bottom was completely silver colored. Needless to say there was't much babbit still in the rods and mains.
Anyhow, the new engine runs great and quiet, and pulls strong even in 4th (OD).
When I first got my car, the engine had been rebuilt about 50 years before with babbit. I dropped the pan and checked the clearance with plastigauge. This left good size dents in the babbit. When this engine finally let go, it went from running quitely to sounding like a small sledge hammer bouncing around inside. After I had it towed hame, I took off the oil pan and found the bottom was completely silver colored. Needless to say there was't much babbit still in the rods and mains.
Anyhow, the new engine runs great and quiet, and pulls strong even in 4th (OD).
john in illinois
Well-known member
I think both bearings can be very good. There is a model A that races at Bonneville that has babbit. As mentioned seek out an experienced rebuilder such as Rich or James.
I personally have a Antique Engine Rebuilder inserted touring engine with a 330 Stipe cam, and overdrive. I have driven 19,000 miles with no problems,most at 55mph on long trips. I use an oil filter.
Have fun with your A. John
I personally have a Antique Engine Rebuilder inserted touring engine with a 330 Stipe cam, and overdrive. I have driven 19,000 miles with no problems,most at 55mph on long trips. I use an oil filter.
Have fun with your A. John
Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
Either can last a long time under the right conditions. Babbit is very forgiving and is adjustable. When inserts go bad, they generally ruin the crankshaft in the process. The correct inserts may not always be easily obtainable.
My engine was rebuilt by a local shop. They did not por rods and mains. When started up engine has a knock like a rod or main for about 5 seconds then runs smooth. Oil seems not to stay in journal over night. Some say to let it go and some say send to James Rogers in NC and have him rebuild.
To shoat, the new pistons from suppliers are not round but egg shaped for expansion.They will sometimes make a clacking noise for a few minutes when first started . My engine does the same, starts and sounds like a hydraulic lifter pumping up for about 2 or3 mins and then goes quiet. Noise is not rods and mains but pistons and or lifters. Checked with engine builder and he said not to worry.
petew
Senior Member
James Rodgers is a good man and he does very nice work. He did an insert motor for me this past winter .
He did a great job at a reasonable price and completed it in a timely fashion. The motor runs like a Swiss watch and makes great power. He knows these motors and I recommend him highly.
Pete
He did a great job at a reasonable price and completed it in a timely fashion. The motor runs like a Swiss watch and makes great power. He knows these motors and I recommend him highly.
Pete
We use J and M Machine up in Mass exclusively for all our work, new and old alike. They are one of very few shops in the country that do metal stiching of cracks and do it properly. They have saved castings that no one else would have a chance at and I have seen several of them, wow!
They have done several Model A and T engines for us of which were Babbitt and one of these has almost 50 thousand miles on it and going strong. We check the clearances usually every 10-15k or so.
State of the art machinery that you won't find anywhere else in the entire country! Every time I visit them I never want to leave!
Take a look at their website, you will be impressed!
www.jandm-machine.com
Meskhov
They have done several Model A and T engines for us of which were Babbitt and one of these has almost 50 thousand miles on it and going strong. We check the clearances usually every 10-15k or so.
State of the art machinery that you won't find anywhere else in the entire country! Every time I visit them I never want to leave!
Take a look at their website, you will be impressed!
www.jandm-machine.com
Meskhov
Kurt in NJ
Well-known member
Babbitt is forever, with inserts you are at the mercy of a manufacturer ---will they still be made when they need to be replaced.
With a babbitt failure many times you can drive home and not do any damage to the crank and block.
With an insert failure many times the damage has already happened to the crank ---and block --for sure if you drive it home.
With a babbitt failure many times you can drive home and not do any damage to the crank and block.
With an insert failure many times the damage has already happened to the crank ---and block --for sure if you drive it home.
Dave in MN
Well-known member
I will echo what some have said previously...
Babbitt is a bit more forgiving...
Inserts tend to fail rather dramatically when they go…
Workmanship is probably the most critical factor when considering either re-build method. The two gents you have asked about are both good and men of their word...you will have a successful and satisfying experience from either. Rich no longer rebuilds with babbitt... only inserts. James will complete either method.
I like inserts, in our area of the country (Minnesota) the guys that did good babbitt work near me are no longer with us…or I just have not found the good ones that have taken it up.
I just finished a 9,200 mile cross country trip with an inserted engine that was rebuilt in 2001 and now has close to 70,000 miles on it...still going strong and I have never had the oil pan off it.
Good luck,
Dave in MN