Babbitt and Shim Question

juke joint johnny said:
Well Hardtimes Looks like we Rattled a few Cages on this one !!! 5 Star Thresd as Well
I'm worried Folks will be out with their Shootin Irons if it carries on.!!!

Just to set the Record Straight and to lighten things up
Are Wonder Womans Bracelets Steel or Brass or did you even notice she had Bracelets?!!

John Cochran
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Lasso/Bracelets....where :eek: !
Hey John,
Very interesting is your inquiry. Maybe since you are involved in informing the engine builder just ...what Americans say, you could let us know whether he decided to use (farmer) shims or no :) Hm, wonder if he ever heard of Henry?
 
forever4 said:
See Ford Babbitt and Shims on Ford Garage for more on steel shims.
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Hey forever4,
Thanks Vince , once again, for your great site into :) !
This time focused on types of shims , proper shimming and shimming vs no shimming informtion
Put a smile right on my wrinkley face :D, as I've been ...reading and applying and sometimes that can be dangerous/costly ! In this case, I've followed some advice from other old timers , who essentially have said what you have written. Consequently, I now have a full pressure B short block with poured Babbitt without main/rod shims ! First time read of your writings here, re shims, adds confidence that such will be good !
However, I've got to wondering at what RPM did Ford drive dry short blocks with electricity ! When breaking in , 1200 rpms for X minutes is recommended. Do you have any idea what rpm, elect motor drove these engines ?
Wonder if anyone here has ever tried to do as Ford did to break in their short block :confused: And, what HP motor do you suppose it would take to do the job ?
I'm guessing my used wash machine motor wouldn't do, eh !!
 
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hardtimes said:
When breaking in , 1200 rpms for X minutes is recommended. Do you have any idea what rpm, elect motor drove these engines ?
Wonder if anyone here has ever tried to do as Ford did to break in their short block :confused: And, what HP motor do you suppose it would take to do the job ?
I'm guessing my used wash machine motor wouldn't do, eh !!
Click to expand...

I read that they ran the engines while looking at the current draw of the electric motor. The stiffer the engine the more current it would draw. One the current when down to a certain amount the engine was loose enough. At least that is what I read. Sounds good but I have no Ford documentation to confirm it.
 
hardtimes said:
Wonder if anyone here has ever tried to do as Ford did to break in their short block !
Click to expand...

All of the photos that I have seen were Fully Assembled engines and not Short Blocks.

Frosted here the last 2 nights, could be coming to a town near you soon.

Darryl in Fairbanks
 
hardtimes said:
Hey forever4,
Thanks Vince , once again, for your great site into :) !
This time focused on types of shims , proper shimming and shimming vs no shimming informtion
Put a smile right on my wrinkley face :D, as I've been ...reading and applying and sometimes that can be dangerous/costly ! In this case, I've followed some advice from other old timers , who essentially have said what you have written. Consequently, I now have a full pressure B short block with poured Babbitt without main/rod shims ! First time read of your writings here, re shims, adds confidence that such will be good !
However, I've got to wondering at what RPM did Ford drive dry short blocks with electricity ! When breaking in , 1200 rpms for X minutes is recommended. Do you have any idea what rpm, elect motor drove these engines ?
Wonder if anyone here has ever tried to do as Ford did to break in their short block :confused: And, what HP motor do you suppose it would take to do the job ?
I'm guessing my used wash machine motor wouldn't do, eh !!
Click to expand...

A couple of things to think about. The crankshaft was burnished early in the assembly process with a different type rotating machine, so that was a different process than what most people think of when they look at the pics of the row of dynamos with the assembled engines mounted on them.

FWIW, I have shown that picture to several electrical engineers asking why the motor was so large, and I have been told these would likely be very low-speed, hi-torque electric motors. Therefore I would suspect the RPM to be well under 60 RPM. I also suspect the engines were not spun long on the dynamo as I see no evidence the pan nor the transmission had any oil added during that process. The reason I feel water was added during this process was to check for leaks due to porosity in the castings/gaskets/etc.

As for the need to run-in, I think there are two key factors in saying No need. First, Ford used quality machines during the boring & honing process which ensured the cylinder case walls were as true as necessary for a good seal. Second, consumers back in the day understood the "break-in" process for a new vehicle, and since they accepted this process, then there was not a need to break-in a new engine at the factory. As for today, those of us who have good quality professional machines to do the engine machining processes find our rebuilt engines "sealing up" within minutes of the initial start-up.
 
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darrylkmc said:
All of the photos that I have seen were Fully Assembled engines and not Short Blocks.

Frosted here the last 2 nights, could be coming to a town near you soon.

Darryl in Fairbanks
Click to expand...

Hey darryl,
Frosted...ahhh, I can only dream :) ! 110 in the shade here :( ! At times 115 in my tiny work shed. Why even the four polish bars MELTED when set in direct sunlight for a short time. Picked up the container, and ha..noticed that it sagged a bit. Pocked with finger and all four bars were liguid..who knew that that could happen :eek: !
Several years ago I drove up and stayed 2 months in your beautiful state. Always said coming back you to stay 4 months..leaving sometime in Sept, as that's when we've determined that the snow/freezing storms can make first appearance.
Anyway, yeah I've seen the HUGE motors that are in the same pics as the ford engines. And, the engines did appear somewhat complete. However, the engine still had to be broke in/burnished bearings..whatever it was named. Here's another question, (in my mind,eh ;)). When turning those engines over,i.e.- metal/metal..no lube (?), was that a very short (breakin) event or how could the heat be handled..to prevent galling/scoring, without coolant. I did not see anything that looked to be water hose ?

Finally, Vince says that TERMS used to describe lifters are confusing.
What confuses me, personally, is that a lot of smart guys here use the term motor ...when talking clearly about an engine:D Splain that to me please :)
 
hardtimes said:
Anyway, yeah I've seen the HUGE motors that are in the same pics as the ford engines. And, the engines did appear somewhat complete. However, the engine still had to be broke in/burnished bearings..whatever it was named. Here's another question, (in my mind,eh ;)). When turning those engines over,i.e.- metal/metal..no lube (?), was that a very short (breakin) event or how could the heat be handled..to prevent galling/scoring, without coolant. I did not see anything that looked to be water hose ?

Finally, Vince says that TERMS used to describe lifters are confusing.
What confuses me, personally, is that a lot of smart guys here use the term motor ...when talking clearly about an engine:D Splain that to me please :)
Click to expand...

If you would read all the posts, you would see this is addressed. The bearings were NOT being burnished with the dynamos where the engines are completed and have the transmissions mounted. Also look at the pictures of the assembled dynamo and you will see the cylinder case is filled with coolant through the inlet port. The coolant was not circulated, therefore no need for an outlet connection.

As far as engines vs. motors, some people use Ford nomenclature to avoid confusion. The term Motors was the standard back during the Model-A era.
 
hardtimes said:
Hey darryl,
Frosted...ahhh, I can only dream :) ! 110 in the shade here :( ! At times 115 in my tiny work shed. Why even the four polish bars MELTED when set in direct sunlight for a short time. Picked up the container, and ha..noticed that it sagged a bit. Pocked with finger and all four bars were liguid..who knew that that could happen :eek: !
Several years ago I drove up and stayed 2 months in your beautiful state. Always said coming back you to stay 4 months..leaving sometime in Sept, as that's when we've determined that the snow/freezing storms can make first appearance.
Anyway, yeah I've seen the HUGE motors that are in the same pics as the ford engines. And, the engines did appear somewhat complete. However, the engine still had to be broke in/burnished bearings..whatever it was named. Here's another question, (in my mind,eh ;)). When turning those engines over,i.e.- metal/metal..no lube (?), was that a very short (breakin) event or how could the heat be handled..to prevent galling/scoring, without coolant. I did not see anything that looked to be water hose ?

Finally, Vince says that TERMS used to describe lifters are confusing.
What confuses me, personally, is that a lot of smart guys here use the term motor ...when talking clearly about an engine:D Splain that to me please :)
Click to expand...

I've been told that the term MOTOR describes an electric motor. Engine would be used to describe a piston engine.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
A couple of things to think about. The crankshaft was burnished early in the assembly process with a different type rotating machine, so that was a different process than what most people think of when they look at the pics of the row of dynamos with the assembled engines mounted on them.

FWIW, I have shown that picture to several electrical engineers asking why the motor was so large, and I have been told these would likely be very low-speed, hi-torque engines. Therefore I would suspect the RPM to be well under 60 RPM. I also suspect the engines were not spun long on the dynamo as I see no evidence the pan nor the transmission had any oil added during that process. The reason I feel water was added during this process was to check for leaks due to porosity in the castings/gaskets/etc.

As for the need to run-in, I think there are two key factors in saying No need. First, Ford used quality machines during the boring & honing process which ensured the cylinder case walls were as true as necessary for a good seal. Second, consumers back in the day understood the "break-in" process for a new vehicle, and since they accepted this process, then there was not a need to break-in a new engine at the factory. As for today, those of us who have good quality professional machines to do the engine machining processes find our rebuilt engines "sealing up" within minutes of the initial start-up.
Click to expand...

Brent, You were told that these were low speed high torque "engines" by several electrical engineers ?
Bill
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Good catch! I'll go back and change that! Thanks!!
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No need to change-the "engineers" are technically correct: "The Oxford English Dictionary defines “motor” as a machine that supplies motive power for a vehicle or other device with moving parts. Similarly, it tells us that an engine is a machine with moving parts that converts power into motion." See the reference in my other post
 
Mike V. Florida said:
I read that they ran the engines while looking at the current draw of the electric motor. The stiffer the engine the more current it would draw. One the current when down to a certain amount the engine was loose enough. At least that is what I read. Sounds good but I have no Ford documentation to confirm it.
Click to expand...

Piece of useless information : that's how milkshake machines( at least 50 years ago) controlled the thickness of the mix. Maybe they borrowed the idea from Ford?
 
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