Awwe Crap!
- Thread starter Capt Kirk
- Start date
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
Man, I sure hate to rain on your already wet day, and I sure hope that I'm just seeing this picture at a disadvantaged angle, but those threads surely do look flat......and kind'a spooky. Tell me I'm wrong! DD
It's the camera in my phone Coop..camera is focused on the extension cord and pic is fuzzy. I noticed in the spider cup picture it looks like there's .020 gouges dug into it from the spiders but there's not...can barely feel them. The carrier bearings look like in the picture that they've been run through gravel but they look pretty good in real life. I was going to chase the axle threads just to clean them up.
ford38v8
Well-known member
Rainy in Michigan, what a surprise! After a bit, I'll be jumping into my pool here in Sunny California! (gotta rub it in). On the pin, I'd advise you to get a new one. One end is mushroom, the other end is peened. While re-use is certainly possible, it's the cheapest part you'll buy, while having a high dollar potential damage to the driveline if it fails.
It never occurred to me to recheck the pinion bearing preload. Not a bad idea, good on ya. Ford literature on that procedure is sadly lacking in real world experience. The following is much easier and frankly, more consistently accurate: Having only the banjo with pinion assembled, it is positioned pinion shaft down in a bench vise, locked tightly by the pinion shaft. With both hands, spin the banjo strong and fast as you can. Correct preload will prevent free spin, stopping the banjo at no more than one full revolution.
While handling the banjo and housings, it is easy to nick the mating surfaces, creating burrs. These must be dressed down with a file. Take care to not file beyond flush. Do not chase threads on banjo or bolts, as they are correct with interference fitting. Obtain two sets of housing gaskets, the first set to be modified for quick positioning-repositioning between left and right sides by splitting the full circles, and opening the bolt holes. Housings will then remain assembled, merely loosened to allow trading of the (tool) gaskets. If done with care, these gaskets become a valuable time saver in gaging backlash, while the actual gaskets remain pristine. Final assembly will require thread sealer, after which the remaining sealer squish on the outside can be easily removed before it sets up.
It never occurred to me to recheck the pinion bearing preload. Not a bad idea, good on ya. Ford literature on that procedure is sadly lacking in real world experience. The following is much easier and frankly, more consistently accurate: Having only the banjo with pinion assembled, it is positioned pinion shaft down in a bench vise, locked tightly by the pinion shaft. With both hands, spin the banjo strong and fast as you can. Correct preload will prevent free spin, stopping the banjo at no more than one full revolution.
While handling the banjo and housings, it is easy to nick the mating surfaces, creating burrs. These must be dressed down with a file. Take care to not file beyond flush. Do not chase threads on banjo or bolts, as they are correct with interference fitting. Obtain two sets of housing gaskets, the first set to be modified for quick positioning-repositioning between left and right sides by splitting the full circles, and opening the bolt holes. Housings will then remain assembled, merely loosened to allow trading of the (tool) gaskets. If done with care, these gaskets become a valuable time saver in gaging backlash, while the actual gaskets remain pristine. Final assembly will require thread sealer, after which the remaining sealer squish on the outside can be easily removed before it sets up.
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
38v8. During restoration, I replaced the banjo bolts with stainless bolts for the "effect" and amazingly, they didn't leak. I have original bolts on the way to replace the stainless ones I had in there.
I just cleaned the banjo and pinion gear with solvent. I don't get any play back and forth in the pinion but I can easily turn it (with driveline and torque tube still attached) with the tip of my thump. It doesn't "coast" beyond me pushing it but it might if the drive shaft wasn't still attached. I'm going to pull the torque tube and I'll need to order a new drive shaft pin...or I could use a 16 penny nail like my dad would have done...LOL. That's a good idea about having "tool" gaskets...with any luck, this will be my first and last dive into a banjo (at least for this car) so I ordered one set and will start with the same thicknesses that I removed since I'm not changing anything. I'll check then make whatever adjustments I need.
I just cleaned the banjo and pinion gear with solvent. I don't get any play back and forth in the pinion but I can easily turn it (with driveline and torque tube still attached) with the tip of my thump. It doesn't "coast" beyond me pushing it but it might if the drive shaft wasn't still attached. I'm going to pull the torque tube and I'll need to order a new drive shaft pin...or I could use a 16 penny nail like my dad would have done...LOL. That's a good idea about having "tool" gaskets...with any luck, this will be my first and last dive into a banjo (at least for this car) so I ordered one set and will start with the same thicknesses that I removed since I'm not changing anything. I'll check then make whatever adjustments I need.
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
Pulled the torque tube this morning and unpinned the driveline. The pinion wasn't loose but it freewheeled. With the spline in the vice and a good spin of the housing...it spun somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15 times. I pulled the nuts and removed the outer bearing to inspect and clean. The outer bearing and race looked great...noticed "Timken" and a Ford script on the bearing as well. Put it back together and snugged it up to the point where I get slightly more than one turn on the spin test. Seems tight to me but I trust you guys. I can grab the splines in my fist and turn it but it's stiff. I need to get a coupling pin ordered.
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
I reused the nut locking plate. It only had 2 of the tabs bent and I ended up using two of the other previously unused tabs.
JSeery
Member Emeritus
Preload should be a heavy drag, around 15 ft-lb if you are checking it to get it to start moving.
Note: I misstated something earlier, I was reading Tardels new booklet on rear axle rebuilds. In the first quick scan of it I didn't notice him using any measurements to check preloads. That was INCORRECT! On a little more detailed reading on page 42 he shows the checking of the pinion preload with a torque wrench.
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
I went out to figure out what I could use to get a torque wrench onto the end of the splines. I thought I'd try a socket to see if that might work. The first one I grabbed was my oil pressure sender socket...ta-da...slid right on and worked good enough to check pre-load. I don't have a beam type torque wrench and my "clink" one didn't cut the mustard.
Now that I've had the bearing pack flooded with Lucas assembly lube, the pre load feels a lot better to the hand...certainly a lot more snug than it was!!
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Mart
Well-known member
Careful, guys, 15 ft lbs sounds high to me, I'm sure when I have heard it quoted before it was in lbs INCHES I don't know the figure.
I'm interested because I have an axle apart and will be putting it back together soon when a bearing separator/puller arrives. first one I've done.
Mart.
I'm interested because I have an axle apart and will be putting it back together soon when a bearing separator/puller arrives. first one I've done.
Mart.
JSeery
Member Emeritus
I was just quoting Tardel, if it's a type-o, he is consistent as it is quoted in more than one place.
I just checked a couple of other references and they call out 15 in-lbs. So, needs a little more checking into. As I have stated several times, this is not how I go about it and I have not checked the preload with a measuring device myself!
I just checked a couple of other references and they call out 15 in-lbs. So, needs a little more checking into. As I have stated several times, this is not how I go about it and I have not checked the preload with a measuring device myself!
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Mart
Well-known member
I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."
I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.
Mart.
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."
I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.
Mart.
JSeery
Member Emeritus
LOL, I just read the same thread. A few post further down may explain the confusion. The original specs were with a direct pull spring scale and are in pounds. The confusion is the conversion of direct pull in pounds to torque values.
If you are interested Mart I believe the poster of the thread you referenced claims he couldn't find any specification for the preload so used a modern rear axle value.
Capt Kirk
Well-known member
This is a quote from a thread on HAMB.
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs. then I tighten up the last big nut I used lock tight on the threads. "
This was a quote from Van Pelts.
"Install the adjusting and lock nuts (4634), with the lock washer (4636) between them, and tighten the nuts so that the sleeve turns on the bearing cones with a heavy drag * and no end play. Lock the adjustment by bending the tabs of the washer against the side of the nuts. (* Ford spec was 12-17 inch pounds)."
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs. then I tighten up the last big nut I used lock tight on the threads. "
This was a quote from Van Pelts.
"Install the adjusting and lock nuts (4634), with the lock washer (4636) between them, and tighten the nuts so that the sleeve turns on the bearing cones with a heavy drag * and no end play. Lock the adjustment by bending the tabs of the washer against the side of the nuts. (* Ford spec was 12-17 inch pounds)."
ford38v8
Well-known member
This makes sense. The used bearings having mated with the races should offer less resistance. I'm thinking the one revolution spin advice should be revised to reflect the used bearing condition? Cap Kirk stated that his preload spin ended up "slightly more than one spin", so maybe up that to 1 1/2 ~ 2 spins would be safer? His "as found" having been freewheeling 10-15 spins with bearings mated does raise some question here.
JSeery
Member Emeritus
This is from the HAMB thread referenced, he is using Ford 9 inch and 8.8 inch specifications as a "similar to" for his values.
"Not being able to find any preload specs for the diff preload I used the preload specs for a pinion bearing from some Ford Motorsports read end instructions. With new bearings I was shooting for a number between 16 in lbs and 28 in lbs. I needed to take more shim out. Took the top bell off and removed the .005 shim gasket. And the left the two .007’s Bolted the bell back on and came up with 22 in lbs of for the preload on the diff bearings. That sounded good to me."
Somewhere else he refers to using Ford 9 in and 8.8 in rear axle values.
VanPelts numbers should be good but it is interesting that his is the original Ford spring-scale values now being used as in-lb values! The original Ford specification was 12 to 17 pounds.
"Not being able to find any preload specs for the diff preload I used the preload specs for a pinion bearing from some Ford Motorsports read end instructions. With new bearings I was shooting for a number between 16 in lbs and 28 in lbs. I needed to take more shim out. Took the top bell off and removed the .005 shim gasket. And the left the two .007’s Bolted the bell back on and came up with 22 in lbs of for the preload on the diff bearings. That sounded good to me."
Somewhere else he refers to using Ford 9 in and 8.8 in rear axle values.
VanPelts numbers should be good but it is interesting that his is the original Ford spring-scale values now being used as in-lb values! The original Ford specification was 12 to 17 pounds.
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Capt Kirk
Well-known member
When Van Pelts says to tighten till it has "heavy drag"...mine now has less than heavy drag but quite a bit more than it did when I first got it apart. My bearings have been mated for 76 years so my logic is telling me that a bit less preload would be ok.
Is there a method of wrapping the splines with string with an eye at the end and using a fishing scale? JSeery...is this what you're talking about when you say "spring scale"?
Since the spline shaft isn't 2" in diameter, 12-17 pounds on the scale does not equate to 12-17 in-lbs. The shaft diameter is 1.1"...17x(1.1 / 2)= 9.35 in-lb
Is there a method of wrapping the splines with string with an eye at the end and using a fishing scale? JSeery...is this what you're talking about when you say "spring scale"?
Since the spline shaft isn't 2" in diameter, 12-17 pounds on the scale does not equate to 12-17 in-lbs. The shaft diameter is 1.1"...17x(1.1 / 2)= 9.35 in-lb