An interesting legal question.

flatheadfan

flatheadfan

Well-known member
I was party to a discussion on vehicle serial numbers the other day and the question came up about some states in the past using the engine number (which may be different than the serial number on the car) as the vehicle identification number on the the car's title. This really seems odd. It would seem that if the engine was changed the vehicle would no longer have a title. If this is the case, would the owner be required to go through a re-titling process to re-establish ownership? Has anyone ran into this problem?

Tom
 
On pre 1948 vehicles in Nebraska only the engine # is used. According to the law if you change engines you are supposed to apply for a builders title. I can tell you what happens in reality, but best not discuss what I have seen. Rod
 
Exactly the point Iargued with one of our state legislaters on. The A's had the # on the block and I have seen more than one restamped. Also with bonded titles and title service paperwork I have seen the Dupeties only use the frame #. Not really how the law is supposed to work, but happens more than one would think. Just goes to show that even the Deputies think the law as written has it wrong. Rod
 
...And Ford considered that the engine number, with engine and trans treated as the numbered unit at assembly and the number on trans then copied at assembly time onto the frame. This started in 1932 supposedly in preparation for the roughly 1933 startup of an engine exchange system. The idea (never really fully accomplished) was that engine work on anything signifiacnt would no longer be done locally...engine would be swapped in a few hours, customer would drive away, bad engine went to the factory for reeducation.
Ford made all of our flatheads (except for Canadian and some British ones) at the Rouge plant, and numbered engine-trans units once they were complete and had passed the run-in test. Partial engines, short-blocks, etc. sold in less than running assembly were not numbered.
I think a replacement engine would have been numbered IF it was sold as a complete and tested unit, and complete industrial engines were numbered.
Now...people keep finding a small number of flatheads with very factory looking serials stamped on the engine deck surface...what gives??
Were there states requiring this on Fords sold there?? Also, there were industrial engines complete but sold without trans, and presumably running and numbered engines sold as replacements without trans...
 
It seems to me the dmv in any state should go by the vehicle identification number.. "VIN". so on a early Ford that would be the numbers stamped on the frame or data tag or firewall & elsewhere. verified by johnny law. just my opinion.
 
If thats the only thing with that number on your car and you take it out and discard it then you will have nothing existing on that car to prove that the car is as described, Would you purchase it in that state. If you restamp another motor with your title number you are committing a crime, I know some will say so what but hey thats their choice, I think I would contact the State DMV at the state level, go to the website under services and call them and answer the question, your Secretary of State most likely has a process for this.
 
Does anyone know about the blocks stamped with a "Z", I have heard they are the ones to build if you want to go big?

marvin
 
Different states have different rules. I've been very fortunate to have been a former resident of Connecticut and a current resident of New Hampshire and life has always been easy. These states require no titles for older vehicles, certainly for what we deal with. New Hamshire is happy to accept a title and will give you one if you want to pay for it. If there is no title, one must simply fill out a ID check request form and contact the local PD. If the officer is satisfied that it's not a numbers job, he/she signs off and off to the town hall you go. The clerk runs the number in the DMV computer and if it doesn't show hot, the plate is issued. There is no sales tax here but there is a personal property tax collected. However, it is based on the vehicles ORIGINAL SALES PRICE. My Model As and the '34 run me $8.00 per year. I have registered bare engine blocks with no problems.

Now the Peoples' Republic of Massachusetts is an abomination before the Lord. I could never understand how some states make registering an antique so difficult when it is another easy source of state revenue, especially today.
 
When my Dad had his shop in the 50's he regularly stamped the old engine number on a new replacement block when changing bad engines out. If I remember correctly the old block number was also removed at the same time. Was this legal? I do not know but this is how he did it in Oklahoma.
When I moved to Texas in the 70's I had a '55 Chev pickup. At that time anything '55 or earlier in Texas the engine # was used for registration. Well, the original 6 had been changed to a V8 and the State kept rejecting the engine # on that V8 so the DMV issued me a new # that I stamped into the engine myself. I had the local PD verify the new # and then reapplied for a title. This time it was accepted and away I went. That same number ended up on 3 more engines before I got rid of that truck.
As to flatheads with serial numbers, my '39 Standard coupe in my Avatar has the same number on the top of the engine, transmission and in two places on the frame. This is also the same number that is on the title!
 
"Z" bocks as far as I can tell were tank and truck blocks, we who were racing modified hardtops in the Detroit area in the 50s and 60's would snap them up when available. The thicknes of the cylinder wall was thicker among other things.

Shades of Motor City Speedway and Flatrock.
 
I think that when the V/8 was introduced they had so many problems casting the block that Ford wasn't sure how they would hold up and the engine and transmission was considered a complete engine. If there was a big recall I would bet they had a "B" engine casting that would bolt to the V/8 transmission already in the car. I believe it was a federal law, not state that all vehicles had the serial number on the engine. I had a friend who passed away about 10 years ago and sold his car for his wife. I discovered he had the body number on the title as the serial number. I am a Florida dealer and know the enforcement officer that covers my area and called him to come look at the car. As dealer I can verify out of state numbers but they need to match the title. I had the floor out and made a tracing of the the transmission number and a good clear picture of that number plus the one on the frame. He came by and I had put the floor back in but he said he needed to see it. I took it back out and he came back in a few days and saw the serial number on the frame and transmission but insisted ALL cars had the serial number on the engine. I had already printed out from Ford documents about the engine number being on the trans and it was a complete engine unit. He still didn't want to change the number from what was the body number. Finely I said you go to auto auctions to inspect cars for serial numbers and if they don't match the title the car can't be sold. Here's a guy who bought this car for $35,000 and now can't sell it. He said your right and filled out the proper paper and we got it changed. G.M.
 
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