Aluminum head gaskets

E

ekentner1

Junior Member
I have a clearance problem with a Winfield head on a "B" engine. The pistons protrude about 0.050 above the deck. A special order copper gasket to provide 0.035 clearance is BIG BUCKS. Making the gasket out of aluminum would make the price reasonable, but I can't find much on using this material for gaskets. Any thoughts and comments would sure be appreciated!

Ed
ekentner1@cox.net
 
Hey Ed,
Can't say that I've ever heard of aluminum being used for head gasket material. Good question and I'll have to ask about this also.
However, you have the option of either..cutting pistons down .050 and an option to DOUBLE up on head gaskets to get clearance or you can get a SOLID copper gasket made to your specs. The third option, as you may have figured, is EXPENSIVE gasket. Doubled up head gaskets have been done and is a fairly cheap remedy...that may cause you another problem...the head comp ratio will most likely be affected somewhat. This is something that you can figure out (that is comp ratio) by adding ccs of the areas of the two gaskets to the head cc. This may be your CHEAPEST remedy , but you will have to make sure that you use proper head gaskets to match the bore/head size..read..NO hangover into comb chamber,eh !
Now, the most work is taking the engine apart to cut pistons down .050, but probably BEST action overall. Hey, when you have engine apart, maybe make some other improvements that you've been thinking of doing :) !

Ed, there is one ADDITIONAL remedial action that you can do to remove the .050 off of piston tops, but I will not mention it here. It is work and may not be for you, but if you would like to discuss how I did it SUCCESSFULLY, PM me. BTW, I was using an aluminum Winfield also...8:1 Super Winfield, so pistons definitely could not be above deck level.
 
Aluminum Head Gasket will not work unless they are heat treated which blows out the cost they just keep compressing with each heat cycle
Question why are your pistons that far above the deck ?? that is much more than normal did someone machine the deck ??
Remove a few thou from the piston crown is OK
0.050 is way to much and will make pistons prone to fail in this area IMO
double head gaskets works on other engines but is only 50/50 on a A/B IMO
Flycutting the head is probably your best option
custom gasket will work get spares in case you need them later
change pistons to some with a lower CH
 
Aluminum and gray iron in contact, and in the presence of an electrolyte (the coolant) sets-up a galvanic reaction that results in corrosion of the aluminum. Use two copper or steel head gaskets with longer studs.
 
Thanks for your quick reply, and input. I am curious to know more about the additional remedial action you mentioned, but just curious . . . the short block was built by H&H engineering, and has been balanced, so trimming the pistons is out.

As for the aluminum head gasket, the jury is still out. My feeling is that if it were feasible, there would be a lot of them in use . . . sure would be an easy fix, though!
 
You may want to do a little measuring and math first to see where you are at.

Off the assembly line, original pistons were .03125 above deck (+ or - 0.005), so your current situation may represent one of five things or some combination:
  • Block decked (milled) up to -0.020 (stock height 11.500 + or - 0.005)
  • Crank reground and no longer at exactly stock stroke, 4.250"
  • Rods rebuilt and no longer at stock 7.500"
  • Replacement piston height not exactly 1.906 (1 29/32)
  • Main bearings not align-bored true to datum plane (pan rail)
Measure the depth of the head flycuts (if any!). You need to leave ~0.040 'squish' clearance after figuring in the compressed head gasket thickness.

IMHO taking 0.025 off a piston top is acceptable, more is really pushing it. I had an engine (Windsor, not an 'A') with 0.032 off the tops self-destruct under hard acceleration.
 
Bob Johnson said:
You can buy a spacer/shim that goes on top of the block. They come in various thicknesses. I have seen them installed on a Model A/B block. I did a quick internet search and below is a link to one company that sells them.

Bob

http://www.innomach.com/images/2012-IMS-CATALOG.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, I gave them a call, it sure looks like an easy fix! My concern now is how well the shims can be sealed to the deck. I asked that question to innomach, the guy said use our Haylomar seal. Do you know if any of the engines you mentioned were running high compression heads?

Ed
 
Hey Ed,
First to answer your 'alum gasket' question..I wouldn't use such.

I think that I see 'things' a little clearer in light of similarity of your situation to what mine was. But, need to confirm, so need more info.
You say going to install alum Winfield. But, what was the head (type/style..iron make) that h/h put on the block that you bought from them :confused: ! I'm thinking that the head that h/h put on, was either stock or similar to stock comb chamber..yes ? The reasons that I ask, is that when my short block was made , an iron head was used that claimed to be 7:1 (LH 111). It had a LARGE cavity for a combustion chamber, so the guy put .050 above deck (stock comp height +variables) pistons in ...popup pistons, if you will. This engine ran strong with this setup. I sold head and went for the high comp Winfield...then noticed/measured/recognized my problem :eek:!! Well, regardless what has been said about removing that .050 , and the problems that it may/will/whatever cause, I run my B fairly hard and it is still running strong. With my 'home brew' fix :) !!

Anyway, pay attention to the laundry list that Mike gives as possibles. The 1.29/32" compression height that he cites, is STOCK compression height that Ford made for our engines. AND THAT'S WHY (plus decades of decking +variables ?) that your pistons are .050 above. Now, if freshly building and wanting flush with deck...you must calculate and order from piston maker...what you want for custom comp height piston. However, be carefull that the piston maker understands exactly what you want, as last one I dealt with screwed up and I had to machine piston tops to get flush with deck (new short block B). I'll admit that this is a 'guess'....but I'm thinking that your builder took the obvious/easy route and used stock comp height pistons, because he measured the clearance with the head and said..that will do FOR THIS HEAD ! Now with the high comp Winfield, you came up against exactly what I experienced.

You've already been given several possible remedies, so will not go back over those. And, you can see by the readings here a little of why I won't enter my home brew fix for removing .050 from tops of pistons. Like said PM if want to discuss..and it ain't easy...but easier than disassembling engine :rolleyes:
 
ekentner1 said:
Thanks Bob, I gave them a call, it sure looks like an easy fix! My concern now is how well the shims can be sealed to the deck. I asked that question to innomach, the guy said use our Haylomar seal. Do you know if any of the engines you mentioned were running high compression heads?

Ed
Click to expand...

What's the price on their copper gaskets? Wouldn't it be better to use their .050" copper gasket than a shim and a gasket?
 
I didn't asked the price of a copper gasket from this company, but I did get a price from another company a little earlier . . . $250.00 for a gasket 0.125", $175.00 for their 0.093 gasket. I'll check with this company, it may be a little better, but I do need at least the 0.093 thickness.
 
I had the same problem and had the head CNC machined to provide the clearance,
This wasn't too expensive but needs to be done accurately, so you need someone familiar with computers and CNC lathes to get it done properly
Like you, I didn't want to dismantle the motor, machine the pistons and then get it all rebalanced again
Good luck
Keith
 
I have a similar Winfield head on an A block. It is supposed to be a 7:1. I wound up using a standard gasket then a solid copper spacer gasket and then another standard gasket. I have been usig it that way for a few years with no problems. I got the solid copper gasket from Clark Copper Gasket Company. They had the pattern for the gasket in stock. My block is .100 over.
Dick
 
Ed, We have used that head on many engines. We have a CNC program to machine the piston reliefs in the head so it will clear. Call me if you want to do this and I can give you more info.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center
 
I have a couple of compressed gaskets at the shop and will check the thickness of them when I get to work tomorrow. I believe a compressed copper gasket is .063. I have run flat heads on many engines and have never had a clearance problem.
 
SteveB31 said:
Ed, We have used that head on many engines. We have a CNC program to machine the piston reliefs in the head so it will clear. Call me if you want to do this and I can give you more info.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center
Click to expand...

To me, this is your best option. Do it once, its done and if you have to pull the head again for some reason, its there, ready to use with a standard gasket. Otherwise, next time you pull the head, you're right back where you are today...trying to rig a fix. Good Luck.:)
 
People used to solve this problem by using 2 headgaskets. I have machined the pistons to correct this problem. All you need is .020 turned off or milled off. I have just cleaned the pistons and rings then wrapped the rings with Duct tape and lightly chucked them in my 3 jaw and taking light cuts machined off the desired amount.
 
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