AI and Model A's

Lona

Lona

Well-known member
After owning my PC laptop for some time, I poked around on the icons at the bottom of the screen about a year ago and found one called "Copilot". Realizing it appeared to be an AI program, I typed in some simple questions and was surprised that I got intelligent answers back within two seconds. More complex questions followed and each one was answered almost instantaneously with very complete answers and full explanations.

One of my tests was to describe a case where my '31 roadster starter wouldn't engage the flywheel and that, upon removing the starter, I found a Bendix bolt had loosened and dropped to the bottom of the flywheel housing. I asked about the best way to remove it. The AI program came back with several ways to remove it which had me awed that a program like that could properly answer a question about a 95 year old car.

A few months ago, without any prior experience, I began a project to base and clearcoat paint my roadster. (currently on another Ford Barn thread). Running into some problems, I asked the Copilot program about several issues that it answered, some with questions back to me asking for more information before giving me a complete answer. It has gotten me out of problems several times.

For those old guys like me or those who hear about AI all the time on the news but don't understand what it's all about, I urge you to see if you have one already installed on your computer like mine, or find one you can load from the internet. There certainly is no better source for knowledgeable answers to Model A questions than this forum, but AI can open a new world of information for you on any subject you can dream of asking.

Glen
 
AI is definitely a good tool but beware there is also a lot of AI generated misinformation out there, especially on social media like YouTube, X and Facebook.
 
I think the tools are now advanced enough that I could spin up a Model-A-specific AI to answer questions in real time, but I just don't have the spare time to supervise the reinforcement learning cycle that would be required before it'd be usable. The main problem with the current models is the unknown unknowns – the AI isn't able to tell the difference between answers that rely on Model A information and those that are inferring information from other cars.
 
Yes, you have to be careful and I should have mentioned that. While I'm on Facebook for Model A and feeds about my other cars, I don't do anything in the social arena. One time, I was on AI with a long discussion over several days on troubleshooting a pool light electrical problem and it was going through various steps to take in sequence to analyze the problem, I found AI spit back some information I had mentioned days previously. So, it was using me to answer my own questions. I have no doubt the advice it gave me on the Bendix bolt problem came from members on this forum.

Certainly, I wouldn't recommend AI as the ultimate go-to source for information because it can make mistakes (as it states on its own webpage), but it tends to give you replies from multiple points of view so you can make your own decisions.

Glen
 
I still have trouble with the "intelligence" part of AI. Using key words and phrases to search data and generate answers is not intelligence. That came from the thousands of old timers who provided the knowledge (intelligence) the gigantic data banks use to copy from. I guess this shows I'm old.
 
alexiskai said:
I think the tools are now advanced enough that I could spin up a Model-A-specific AI to answer questions in real time, but I just don't have the spare time to supervise the reinforcement learning cycle that would be required before it'd be usable. The main problem with the current models is the unknown unknowns – the AI isn't able to tell the difference between answers that rely on Model A information and those that are inferring information from other cars.
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Actually AI, at least the one on my computer, is very specific. As an example, I was having trouble with my 15 yr old refrigerator ice maker as it would not stop making ice. I gave AI the make and model number and asked it what the problem could be.

The first thing it suggested was to check the wire bail and sure enough, the bail had come loose. After trying unsuccessfully to reattach the bail because the hole for the wire was hidden, AI told me how to locate the hole with my finger and how it was necessary to bend the wire at a certain angle to get it into the hole. It went further and told me what the model number was for a replacement ice maker and even gave instructions on how to install it.

AI, of course, uses our forum for some of its information on Model A's. However, the search function on Fordbarn is not very good and I've often been frustrated trying to find info on a specific Model A subject. Now, I just go to AI and the answer appears immediately......probably info taken from Fordbarn threads, but that's good and it avoids wasting a lot of time searching.

Glen
 
Lona said:
Actually AI, at least the one on my computer, is very specific. As an example, I was having trouble with my 15 yr old refrigerator ice maker as it would not stop making ice. I gave AI the make and model number and asked it what the problem could be.
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By specific, I mean one that was trained not on Ford Barn but on reliable sources like the service bulletins, which are not online.
 
alexiskai said:
By specific, I mean one that was trained not on Ford Barn but on reliable sources like the service bulletins, which are not online.
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I see your point. I do not know where AI gets its information but I would think it's from a number of sources, including the internet which may be the major contributor.

Just for fun, I asked AI if the service bulletins were online and the answer I got was that they are. It told me to go to archive.org which I did. That site is like a library where you need to join for free and "borrow" the service bulletin book. I was able to see the complete book and to look at only a few pages but had to join to see every page which I did not take the time to do.

Surely not all information is on the internet but I wonder what question one would have to pose to get an answer saying "I don't know"

Glen
 
AI is a research tool and nothing more.It will never give you an answer that some human somewhere hasnt already mentioned somewhere on the internet.Take GROK for instance ,the answer will come with links to the source material.Its never going to give you an answer that some human hasnt already thought of.
Its a time saver but I wouldnt risk my life on any answer from AI.
If you drill down on any subject you often eventually get nonsense answers including information you gave it.Try telling Ai to forget you and all your previous interactions then wait a few minutes.Dose not work .It will never forget anything you have said.:)
 
Lona-thank you! I just went through a quite involved troubleshooting thread on an automatic trans valvebody problem with Copilot and the information was very accurate and fast. I'd searched quite a while earlier without results-this was enlightening. I believe the problem was identified. :)
 
Lona said:
Surely not all information is on the internet but I wonder what question one would have to pose to get an answer saying "I don't know"
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If you ask it technical questions about the Model B distributor, it will confidently give you nonsensical answers, because the B dizzy is poorly documented even on paper.
 
Wasn't it an AI some weeks back that stated confidently that the difference between standard and deluxe bodies was that they had different number of louvers in the hood?
 
Artificial Intelligence is currently not cable of thinking. It just has a large data base to search for answers. But it does not think about the answers, it just regurgitates it back.
 
nkaminar said:
Artificial Intelligence is currently not cable of thinking. It just has a large data base to search for answers. But it does not think about the answers, it just regurgitates it back.
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And where we get into trouble is when we, capable of thinking to one degree or another, refuse to recognize that AI is just that - information that is no better than whatever source it came from, not as truly thought out. It's just a fancy search engine that, rather than listing the possible sources of information, summarizes and presents as "fact". The acronym GIGO existed long before AI but applies doubly.
 
JayJay said:
And where we get into trouble is when we, capable of thinking to one degree or another, refuse to recognize that AI is just that - information that is no better than whatever source it came from, not as truly thought out. It's just a fancy search engine that, rather than listing the possible sources of information, summarizes and presents as "fact". The acronym GIGO existed long before AI but applies doubly.
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That's true, of course. However, I compare the extensive time it often takes to use the internet to search through a multitude of sites for enough information to make a thoughtful decision to the instantaneous search results that AI gives me. You are correct in saying AI is a fancy search engine but it sure makes the search much easier.

The Copilot AI that came with my computer does cite its sources. If I ask it a question about Model A's, it will show a note citing its sources. For example, I asked what is the best way and location to install a Model A cutoff switch and the AI reply cited Ford Barn, Ecklers, and YouTube as sources for its research. It also listed the pros and cons of several switch locations and how best to connect it in the battery circuit, including giving reasons why one option would be better than another. It even showed photos of different types of switches that one might choose. And, at the end, it asked if I wanted it to give me an electrical diagram of how to hook up the cutoff.

It's scary, but it also gave me info on how to install the switch on a '31 roadster because it knew from my previous questions regarding painting that I owned a '31 roadster.

In seconds, I had enough information to evaluate my options for myself that would have taken me hours to wade through all the ads and misinformation on the internet to get.

Glen
 
Lona said:
The Copilot AI that came with my computer does cite its sources. If I ask it a question about Model A's, it will show a note citing its sources. For example, I asked what is the best way and location to install a Model A cutoff switch and the AI reply cited Ford Barn, Ecklers, and YouTube as sources for its research. It also listed the pros and cons of several switch locations and how best to connect it in the battery circuit, including giving reasons why one option would be better than another. It even showed photos of different types of switches that one might choose. And, at the end, it asked if I wanted it to give me an electrical diagram of how to hook up the cutoff.

Glen
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Not to belabor the point, but Eckler's abandoned the Model A market what, four or five years ago? And YouTube, the less said about that as a credible souce the better. Been burned too many times, there's no mechanism for accountability.

Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age. I remember thirty years ago when my Dad said something like "what's this dot com stuff all about"... I hate to think I'm getting like him in that regard.
 
AI is a complex technology. It's only in its infancy, regardless of what you hear and how many jobs it's taking. It's not a thinking technology, but a learning technology. It's only as good as the data it is being fed and has access to. It's not a search engine. The results between AI and a search engine should show you that.

Right now it's very good at data compilation, organization, analysis, and similar entry level work. In research, we build and test AI to do a lot more complex work, and no matter what Elon Musk, Amazon, or others say, it's not accurate, almost always fails and it won't take over the world anytime soon. Its biggest failure is that it doesn't think. Learning and thinking are two different things.

There's a lot of criticism on this thread about how it doesn't know Model A's, which is probably true. I'd never use it for antique car related data. If someone built a conversational chatbot and fed it every Model A manual, from the service bulletins to the Andrews books, it would actually be a very useful and valuable tool. That would be thousands of pages of data it would need, and old Ford drawings to make it useful. It would then be able to sort out the errors in published sources to filter those out. it would be actually very good at that point. It wouldn't take much to create a chatbot, you can use AI to write the code, (most of it, there would be errors in the code), the hard part is the lack of real repair data online since most A related stuff is only in print. But they do make automated book scanners!
 
It’s helpful for visualizing colors and some fabrication ideas. I’m rebuilding a 31 pickup that doesn’t have a bed and I wanted to do something unique but period appropriate, so I’m thinking about building wooden tool boxes to form the bed sides. This is what copilot came up with. It’s pretty close to what I have in mind.
IMG_2690.jpg
 
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