peters180a/170b
Well-known member
Hello Dean ,good luck with #495...question "T"s had hanger bars with ford script. Was this carried over to the early "A"s ?
A495's chassis will be in San Diego
- Thread starter dean from bozeman
- Start date
Roadster62
Well-known member
Ok, what's a "hanger bar"?
d.j. moordigian
Well-known member
The hiboy roadster pu in the add, the cowl and tank are incorrect for an ve-28 car.
I agree with Dean that it is probable SFA 365.
Dudley
I agree with Dean that it is probable SFA 365.
Dudley
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
Spring shackles
Roadster62
Well-known member
Please explain the differance, for years I've read that there are different 28-29 cowls (Roadster). One has a better areo design therefore the Bonneville racers used that one, I want to know what these slight differances are. Love it when an original thread goes sideways and more knowledge is added to the pile.
peters180a/170b
Well-known member
I have n.o.s. Ford spring shackle bars and did not know if Model "T" bars for the shackle were the same for VERY EARLY "A"s.
dean from bozeman
Well-known member
Hey Pete, the front spring shackle bars are a T part. They have the Ford script and a T part number on them. The lug nuts are a dull nickel and to my knowledge are also a T crossover. Right off the bat I can't think of any other parts that fit that description.
Pete, part of me wanted to put this chassis in fine point to see what it would score in certain areas. The trouble it would and will have in judging is that so many parts are unique to the first 1000 A's that many very qualified judges might not be familiar with them. This presents an interesting problem as do many unique Model A's, should there be a team of judges with particular knowledge who varify the authenticity of unique Model A's. This would take unnecessary pressure off judges who could be less familiar with certain A's. I know variances can be obtained after being run by the JS committee but they can't be obtained for dozens of parts. It would overload the JS with work.
Okay I did go a little off the "Are their T parts on an A?" question but I do have concerns. As Mark Welch worked on A495 he noticed unique features on the body. In San Diego Bill Sturm said that he will show me features on the body that occur on one side but not the other. Several times Doc Kalinka has pointed out things that are different. Now when it takes gentlemen of this caliber several go rounds to find oddities where does that put well intended but not as knowledgeable judges as me?
For example, Rob Mills has an amazing low mileage, original fire truck. It is a gorgeous vehicle and looks 100% original. Just think of the unique problems that a vehicle like that might have for judges. Ron Rude will be bringing A1276 to San Diego for fine point judging. Though it "misses" the official 1000 vehicle cutoff there are many parts on the early West Coast vehicles (e28) that are particular to the very early '28 vehicles (ve28).
I totally love that this hobby has the somewhat common '29 Tudor (one of which I own) and the ultra rare A's (3 window coupe, Town Car Delivery, ve28s, etc.). I applaud the JS for making the playing field as level as possible but they are confronted with an amazing number of problems.
The concern I have is that a knowledgeable, well intended judge may not know about the Model T shackle bar, or a valve on an original fire truck. Only a handful of folks in the hobby have that type of expertise. The problem doesn't get any better when we lose people the caliber of Mark Welch and Roger Kauffman.
Just some thoughts.
Dean
Pete, part of me wanted to put this chassis in fine point to see what it would score in certain areas. The trouble it would and will have in judging is that so many parts are unique to the first 1000 A's that many very qualified judges might not be familiar with them. This presents an interesting problem as do many unique Model A's, should there be a team of judges with particular knowledge who varify the authenticity of unique Model A's. This would take unnecessary pressure off judges who could be less familiar with certain A's. I know variances can be obtained after being run by the JS committee but they can't be obtained for dozens of parts. It would overload the JS with work.
Okay I did go a little off the "Are their T parts on an A?" question but I do have concerns. As Mark Welch worked on A495 he noticed unique features on the body. In San Diego Bill Sturm said that he will show me features on the body that occur on one side but not the other. Several times Doc Kalinka has pointed out things that are different. Now when it takes gentlemen of this caliber several go rounds to find oddities where does that put well intended but not as knowledgeable judges as me?
For example, Rob Mills has an amazing low mileage, original fire truck. It is a gorgeous vehicle and looks 100% original. Just think of the unique problems that a vehicle like that might have for judges. Ron Rude will be bringing A1276 to San Diego for fine point judging. Though it "misses" the official 1000 vehicle cutoff there are many parts on the early West Coast vehicles (e28) that are particular to the very early '28 vehicles (ve28).
I totally love that this hobby has the somewhat common '29 Tudor (one of which I own) and the ultra rare A's (3 window coupe, Town Car Delivery, ve28s, etc.). I applaud the JS for making the playing field as level as possible but they are confronted with an amazing number of problems.
The concern I have is that a knowledgeable, well intended judge may not know about the Model T shackle bar, or a valve on an original fire truck. Only a handful of folks in the hobby have that type of expertise. The problem doesn't get any better when we lose people the caliber of Mark Welch and Roger Kauffman.
Just some thoughts.
Dean
Charles Reese
Well-known member
Gary Karr
Well-known member
Dean,
The same is true in judging AA's. There will be at least two in fine point this year in San Diego and the question has come up by one of the owners, will the judges know enough about AA's to accurately and fairly judge them? All we can do at this point is go by the current Judging Standards and bring in the Chief Judge if there are questions. This holds true with ve-28's and e-28's.
The same is true in judging AA's. There will be at least two in fine point this year in San Diego and the question has come up by one of the owners, will the judges know enough about AA's to accurately and fairly judge them? All we can do at this point is go by the current Judging Standards and bring in the Chief Judge if there are questions. This holds true with ve-28's and e-28's.
peters180a/170b
Well-known member
OK Thanks Dean , i know where you are coming from as far as judges knowing whats what.As long as your covered for the bars. I had 7 n.o.s. bars of which i filled in FORD script with #17649 on them. I am down to 3 left and the funny part about it is they are stamped dead center ,not like Charles Reese pictured off center and all 3 are FORD script different. Just like the Hub caps..The top of the "F" is different as the tail of the "D" and 1 is very fine stamped and the other 2 are bold. I will not fill these in as i would ruin them for someone doing a EARLY "A" for fine point judging only.
..good luck Dean,,i know its been years in the making. People laugh at me when i tell them 7 years on a restoration.[twice] ..Takes alot out of you..
..good luck Dean,,i know its been years in the making. People laugh at me when i tell them 7 years on a restoration.[twice] ..Takes alot out of you..
Marco Tahtaras
Well-known member
In reality, unusual vehicles typically fare better in judging than common models. Most folks on the judging floor certainly have the experience to recognize when a vehicle they encounter is at least somewhat unique. They then realize they have to think outside the box. When they encounter an uncertainty they can't find a definitive answer on then the owner/vehicle is given the benefit of the doubt.
With that said, it doesn't mean errors won't be made. Errors are ALWAYS made. However those errors nearly always include both positive and negative errors. You will frequently hear someone complain about losing a point or two incorrectly. When was the last time you heard someone proclaim "The judges gave me a gift!" Positive errors or "gifts" are quite prevalent but most car owners either don't know enough to recognize it or choose not to admit it.
You need to relax about prospect of showing an unusual vehicle. In my 30+ years experience I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't score higher than I personally believe it should have. Obviously opinions will vary, especially among owners.
peters180a/170b
Well-known member
Marco , your right ... At A.A.C.A Meets i started to show why i have CHROME Buttons on my rear quarter panels where the top rest stud goes . NO one knew. This past National i showed a picture in the brown book THE FORD MODEL "A" as Henry Built it. Pg. 133,, a plug covered the hole where the top rest bracket screwed into. It was upto the owner to remove this plug! The late AL Lapore and i was going to work on this but AL said for what it cost to reproduce it would not pay.So i came up with a better idea but $70.00 for a pair. I have seen and know of only 1 set of originals . At wanted $500.00 a pair i recieved no calls...Needed something to go by and better then the FORD blue prints. O WELL..
Roadster62
Well-known member
Charles, are those wheel lug nuts the same as 26-27 T Wire wheel lugs or do they somehow differ? Thanks, Bob
Charles Reese
Well-known member
as best i can determine, they were a "T" carry over until the 'acorn' style was introduced
Roadster62
Well-known member
Thanks, for some reason I think I may have a few around here and I think the height differed, that is why I asked.
Charles Reese
Well-known member
you might ask on the "T" forum
d.j. moordigian
Well-known member
Charles,
Your shackle bar in you photo # T 7648 is a T( I believe ), the number is
T 7649. The "48" is shorter than the "49"
Dudley
Your shackle bar in you photo # T 7648 is a T( I believe ), the number is
T 7649. The "48" is shorter than the "49"
Dudley
Helen Ehrenhofer
Junior Member
This sounds like it would make a great article with photos in the Model A News. Can't wait to see it San Diego. Will publish photos and an article Dean - if you want me to include it as an article in the Model A News. Let's get together on this - thanks!!