600 W oil / STP

I now use the type that Snyders sells, it is said to be 250#. A few years ago I read that straight STP was the way to go so I tried it. I noticed that my other model A's shifted better on the 600 equivalent sold by the model A vendors. I had to heat the transmission case with a heat gun to get the STP out.
 
Penrite have a range of oils specifically designed for vintage (and veteran ) use .Penrite 140 Transoil is according to Penrite the same as 600W. Also comes as Transoil 250. Easy to get Safe with yellow metal . Have used both for 5 years in three cars (including the rear end of my 1910 Hupmobile ) with no problems . Anecdotal I know !
 
I'd like to toss in a little info for those who like to expand what they know, not looking to put anyone down.

That W thing seems to steer people around a little. The 600W nomenclature dates back more than 100 years, and as noted in a couple previous posts it's origins were as a steam cylinder oil. It also found good use in worm gears. The common element there is lubricating sliding action. Back then that was assisted by the use of whale oil as it was discovered to have a highly polar (think like a magnet) molecular structure. So it stuck well. Since the use of whale oil is now verboten other similar acting chemicals are employed. The W on 600 grade meant there was whale oil added, has nothing to do with "weight", or viscosity. This is not to be confused with the W designation in multi-grade oils. That W stands for winter, not weight as some may believe. Multigrade oils are graded for low temperature flow properties (thus winter), whereas straight grades (e.g. SAE 30) are not. There's more to that story, but who knows if there's sufficient interest.

Oil companies put out lots of info if you know to look for it, for lubricants it's often beneficial to read these data sheets.........solves a lot of misinformation. As noted above, one of us was told that today's 600w isn't for steam cylinders anymore. Whoever told him that was misinformed. Here's a link to a data sheet for Mobil 600w, clearly identified for that application. http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENINDMOMobil_600W_Cylinder_Oil.asp Though we may not be too familiar with that application in our day to day lives, a reasonable number of industries world wide still do.

As for what other gear oil viscosity grade the 600w most resembles the data sheet can answer that question too. Viscosity grading is based on rate of flow. Modern standards measure that in a unit of measure called a centistoke, abreviated as cST. Since temperature affects that rate of flow, the measure is always reported at a specified temperature. So, if you look at the data sheet for 600w, it measures 27 centistokes at 100c (aprox 212f for those who don't care for metric). Here's the data sheet for Mobil HD gear lube; http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobilube_HD_80W-90_85W-140.asp
If you look at the 85w140 grade at 100c you'll see it measures 25.3 centistokes, close enough to be the "same" as 600w at that temp. The sharp of eye might also have caught the difference at 40c that may or may not be meaningful to you.

BTW, I'm not pushing Mobil products, they just have good info that's easily accessed. Hope some of you are still awake by this point in the post.;)
 
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thanks Uncle Bob, I found that interesting and informative. My question is: if the correct viscosity (and lubricity) oils are available, why do the parts-suppliers add things like STP? Is their blend (thinking of Brattons and Snyders, have not tried the others) higher or lower viscosity than the straight stuff from Mobil or similar? I've only used Brattons recently, and Snyders years ago, but reading all this lately about the Mobil and other "correct out of the drum" oils makes me want to try some and see how it compares. (25 years ago when I graduated, I WAS a Mechanical Engineer, so this topic fascinates me :-)
 
A buddy of mine was the chief chemist at a "Fortune 500" company and added STP regularly in his Honda motor cycle engine and gear box. He was sponsored by Honda for racing and found STP to get him another 1000rpm on the track. The gear box shifted better and no excessive wear was found during tear downs. Not truly scientific, but you cannot argue with the data.......
 
I just priced Lubriplate SPO-299 at my local distributor... 5-gallon pail was about $110, plus shipping.

Supposedly, Lubriplate also packages it in 2lb bottles (probably have to buy a case), but that option was not offered to me.

I'm all for using the real stuff, if it's out there... the Brass car guys do NOT use STP.
 
If you look at the 85w140 grade at 100c you'll see it measures 25.3 centistokes, close enough to be the "same" as 600w at that temp. The sharp of eye might also have caught the difference at 40c that may or may not be meaningful to you.

You're on the right track but looking at the wrong data. I sure hope your trans, steering, etc., don't operate at 100°c (212°f)! I've marked up the chart below for clarity.

viscosity_table_2.gif
 
Marco,

This chart is a veritable "Rosetta Stone" !

Thank you !

The original owners' manual for my Grandad's '54 Chevy truck references the Saybolt viscosity index... that's the only place I've encountered that metric in "real life"...

:cool:
 
A buddy of mine was the chief chemist at a "Fortune 500" company and added STP regularly in his Honda motor cycle engine and gear box. He was sponsored by Honda for racing and found STP to get him another 1000rpm on the track. The gear box shifted better and no excessive wear was found during tear downs. Not truly scientific, but you cannot argue with the data.......

To me that sounds as believable as the folks that claim massive increases in fuel economy after changing over to synthetic motor oil! Setting that aside however, did you ever ask him if tried 50% or more STP? I'd be shocked if he did so.

stp-1.jpg
 
You're on the right track but looking at the wrong data. I sure hope your trans, steering, etc., don't operate at 100°c (212°f)! I've marked up the chart below for clarity.

viscosity_table_2.gif


OOOO, somebody is interested in this stuff!! You might notice in my full post I said something along the lines of "there's more to this......". Part of what I've learned on automotive forums is there's limited interest in the guts of lubrication..........something akin to "too much information". I get that and try to post accordingly. Without getting too far out into the weeds, you've done the same thing you "accused" me of (though I doubt you meant it in a negative way). I chose the measure at 100c on purpose because that's the only temperature that you can compare a straight grade like 600w and a multi-grade like 85w140. I probably should have stuck with straight grade to straight grade. The w indicated multigrades are measured at various -c temperatures also, whereas straight grades aren't. There's no way a 600w is going to meet the same spec as the 85w portion of 85w140. But I'm glad you've taken the effort to post this chart for those who might be interested.

BTW, those that are using the very heavy oils up toward the 250 grade could be operating at close to 200f in their tranmissions if they're doing any prolonged highway driving. Fluid friction produces heat as well.

thanks Uncle Bob, I found that interesting and informative. My question is: if the correct viscosity (and lubricity) oils are available, why do the parts-suppliers add things like STP? Is their blend (thinking of Brattons and Snyders, have not tried the others) higher or lower viscosity than the straight stuff from Mobil or similar? ....:-)

Thanks Barry,
I have no idea why they choose to do that. Could be a marketing decision to hit the beliefs of the fattest part of the market, could be what they really believe, whether it's realistic or not. Posts 15 and 20 have some mostly accurate info about the chemistry of STP from what I remember from years ago. Long chain polymers are used to make multigrade oils multigrade. Let's use the 10w40 for an example. The first concept to recall is that most lubricants thin as they heat up. What the description 10w40 tells us (per specification definitions) is that it flows at the same rate as a SAE 10 grade at a specified -c, and at the same rate as a SAE 40 at 100c. What the long chain polymer (viscosity index improver), which is the bulk of the material in a can of STP and other similar products, does is slow down the "natural" rate of thinning of the SAE 10 oil. So what folks do when they add this type of aftermarket additive is bend the viscosity curve of the original lubricant making it thin less at higher temps than it normally would without modification.

There's lots more to this but this is basic info to stimulate thought and research.
 
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Interesting stuff! Thanks Marco and Uncle Bob. I looked up Lubriplates data sheet for SPO288 and SPO299. Importantly, is specifically says it is safe for 'yellow metals'. Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, per the photo in Model-A times (thanks for referencing that article John L., I went back and looked it up). I'm going to see where I can buy some SPO288 in qts or order it at least, and try it out.
 
hmmmm, just found this on a Franklin web-site when searching for SPO 288. Looks like I need to investigate this a bit more. This is a letter response to a Franklin club member, from Lubriplate:
------
Our APG Series does have sulfur in it. SPO oils do not contain any sulfur.
Normally, we do not recommend EP gear oils with sulfur on bronze and brass
gears. However, in your situation, I would recommend the continued use of
the APG-140. Being that it is an antique car, the benefits of the EP
additive outweigh the sulfur-bronze issue. You must use an EP gear oil for
automotive applications. Our SPO Series does not have any EP additives.

Sincerely,
Dan Moroses
Lubriplate Division
Fiske Brothers Refining Co
 
Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, .......

Looking at the Mobil 600W, the viscosity numbers are 375 & 27 respectively. So there's actually a fair bit of difference when compared to the 288. However, if we look at the reference chart Marco put up it shows they are both within the range (a pretty wide one) for the SAE Gear 140 grade. The 600 is at the very bottom (light) end, the 288 at the extreme opposite. Technically they're the same grade, and given that most of the automotive equipment we're dealing with here (not familiar enough with the Franklin you referenced though) is pretty tolerant of a wide variety of products (just look at all the variants enumerated in this thread). We're dealing with spur and helical gears (except the steering) which are relatively easy to lubricate, relying mostly on viscosity, less so on benefits attributed to additive performance. Hypoid gears are much more demanding because of the sliding action at tooth interface rather than rolling action, thus the need for EP additives there. Personally I'm not in the "more is better" camp for most things, so wouldn't go with the heaviest products. Mainly because of the fluid friction thing I mentioned earlier. In some cases where it may be necessary to compensate for some mechanical issues, maybe, but not in something that's in spec.
 
Interesting stuff! Thanks Marco and Uncle Bob. I looked up Lubriplates data sheet for SPO288 and SPO299. Importantly, is specifically says it is safe for 'yellow metals'. Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, per the photo in Model-A times (thanks for referencing that article John L., I went back and looked it up). I'm going to see where I can buy some SPO288 in qts or order it at least, and try it out.

Barry,

If you find a source for SPO-288 in quart quantities, please let us know where to get it.

Thanks !

Frank
 
Update on the Lubriplate: found a great supplier of qt bottles. Looks like a supplier I'll bookmark for a lot of restoration supplies that will come in handy for my '28 Studebaker! We get spoiled with all the Model-A suppliers available.... but for other old cars, this place has a ton of great material that is difficult to find elsewhere..!!
Website: http://www.restorationstuff.com/index.htm
this is the info on Lubriplate SPO277 and SPO288 from their website. I'm going to go with the SPO288:
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
140W Gear Oil​
[/FONT]For transmissions and rear ends with straight, worm, or spiral bevel; good in cold weather or if the vehicle is hard shifting with heavier oils. LubriPlate SPO-277 [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]LUB010 $12.50/qt​

[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
250W Gear Oil​
[/FONT]A heaver, tacky cohesive oil for transmissions and rear axles where heavier oil is required. It can also be used with spiral/bevel or [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]older hypoid gears[/FONT][/FONT]. LubriPlate SPO-288 [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]LUB012 $12.50/qt​

[/FONT][/FONT]
 
I have used straight STP in my steering boxes, for decades, with no problems or excessive wear.
I don't use it in my gear boxes or rear ends, for the fear that it might all, stick to the insides of the cases.
MIKE :) (mikeburch)
 
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