59A refresh / rebuild advice

[42Ford M-H]

I have 2 trucks, one with a 29A and one I just recently picked up has a 59A.

29A has a cracked cylinder. (I haven't checked the pan rail yet) is the only problem I've found so far.

The 59A seemed to be in much better shape until I drained the oil and it was neon green

To begin with I'm looking to just get a motor back together that runs and goes. Down the road I'll do some mods to get some more HP out of her.

The 59A, all the cylinders look great except for one that had some minor rust. None of them have any pitting, and a ridge just barely big enough to catch your nail at the top of the cylinders. No marking on the pistons to indicate it has been bored. Half the valves are sticking, a few of them went back in with a light tap of a wooden dowel. Decent amount of sludge under the intake. 1/2 deep or so.

No cracks to be found yet, is it possible one of the head gasket were leaking and over the years the antifreeze from the radiator seeped down to the oil pan? It's been sitting 10+ years in dry storage. I probably should get it pressure tested before I spend to much time on it. OR buy a kit to do it myself.

I guess my dilemma is how far should I go to get the motor back up and running. I plan on replacing gaskets and cleaning the motor out. If i can get the lifters free should I just lap the valves and leave it the way it is? Put the heads back on and check compression and if they are low maybe hone the cylinders and put in new rings? I should probably check the crank bearings. I plan on cleaning up the ports regardless.

And ofcourse plan B is to just do the some realistic mods while its apart. I had thought about picking up a 4 inch crank. I need to do more research on what all is involved with swapping cranks. I've also read some folks like the 29a rods better? So Maybe I use those. I would like to do a twin carb setup, but that can be done later. Stock cams are fine for mild builds from what I've read. I do like the crab style distributor on the 29a, Still need to check if I can put that on the 59a.

Unfortunately I don't have any other flathead friends in my area to bounce ideas off. Most of them tell me I'm wasting my time and to use it as a boat anchor and put in a SBC. Obviously a lot of these questions would pertain to just about any motor rebuild but it would be nice to get feedback from other flathead builders.

Sorry for all the rambling
Thanks in advance for any opinions !!

 

[Mart]

This reference to the oil being neon green needs to be expanded. I can't work out if that is a bad thing or an ok thing or a good but surprising thing. Some oils are green.

Mart.

 

[oldfordman33]

A couple things. Do not try to modify the engine until it is in good working condition. Patching it up will just lead to trouble. The 4 inch crank will also need pistons for a 4 inch stroke. Rods 21 A and 99 A are small journal rods from 85 hp engines and are used when the crank is ground off center for something like a 4 1/8 stroke.

Best bet go to the internet and research building the flathead. There is more info than you will ever need there.

Your friends may be right, the SBC may be the easiest way to go. They are cheap, plentiful and easy to modify.

That said, nothing sounds or looks better than a full dress flathead.

Good luck

 

[42Ford M-H]

It was definitely antifreeze in the oil. I'd say a half gallon at least maybe more.


oldfordman33

You're saying get it running before I change anything? Or are you saying make sure the block is good, then think about doing the crank?

 

[flatheadmurre]

If youre gonna put a lot of manhours into it start by making shure its good.
Clean up inspect and then descide what to do.

 

[Bored&Stroked]

Any engine can suck up a lot of time - so start by having the block cleaned and magnafluxed . . . you can pressure test it as well, this is an added (but good) test. Have the crankshaft and rods checked as well. Once you know the condition of both blocks (and associated parts), then you'll know what needs to be done and if there are any "now versus later" options. There are always ways to do things on the cheap - you gamble your time/energy and some $$$ in that game . . . I've learned to respect my time as much as the machine shops - so I don't tend to do that often!

To me, the very least you'd do (if the cylinders are good) is to hone them, put in new rings, etc.. On the valve train, you really need to check for worn stems and wear on the seats and faces. Chances are that it will need a valve job - and you either do it right, or you suffer the consequences. Typically I replace the 32 - 48 valve setups with the later 49-53 valve setups (one piece guides, etc).

The valve work is that hardest part on these engines - as they're just not like modern OHV stuff and many machine shops have no experience and don't have the necessary mandrels to do the seats correctly. But - this isn't rocket science - once you know the condition and if you have a shop that knows flatheads, you can do the minimum and get the thing back on the road.

If the crank journals are scored or worn, or the bearings worn out - you pretty much need to rebuilt the lower-end. Again, nothing unique here . . . except if you want to run the 29A rods (which are great full-floaters), then you do need to know how to setup the bearings. I've posted some posts on youtube that goes through how you do it with 21A rods (same deal as 29A rods). BUT - if the rods need to be rebuilt . . . then the machine shop needs to know how to handle full-floaters. The cost of doing this will probably be as much as new rods. If you continue to run the stock crankshaft, then you'll have to run the full-floater rods and bearings - as the crank only has a single oil hole in the rod journals (so you need the full-floater bearings).

If you go to the 4" Merc crank (new pistons as well), then you can run either full-floaters or later 49-53 style rods with insert bearings. These later rods are easier to setup - and if you go this route, just buy a NEW set from SoCal (well worth the $225 dollars).

Put a new 49-53 oil pump and pickup in it . . . it is the heart of the engine.

Hope this helps and it is FANTASTIC that you're not listening to your friends . . . and are headed down the flathead path. You'll really enjoy having one of these on the road and get a LOT of satisfaction from not running just another SBC.

Best of luck!

 

[42Ford M-H]

Thanks so much for the feedback, that was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I can do tons of research on the internet to look for stuff, but if i don't know what to look for it makes it tough.

It sounds like if the crank needs to be turned I'm better off just going the 4 inch crank route now instead of later, and 8BA rods 4 inch pistons. If the valves look like they have seen better days then use 8ba's. Does this include the Lifters? or just the valves and guides? 8BA oil pump and pickup.

 

[Bored&Stroked]

There are options on valves/lifters - using the originals and grinding the valve lengths to match (which is how Ford did it). Or, finding a good quality set of adjustable lifters. There are different levels of quality - some guys have problems with ones that are too soft and/or with adjusters that are not tight enough (keep backing off).

 

[Bored&Stroked]

Thanks so much for the feedback, that was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I can do tons of research on the internet to look for stuff, but if i don't know what to look for it makes it tough.

It sounds like if the crank needs to be turned I'm better off just going the 4 inch crank route now instead of later, and 8BA rods 4 inch pistons. If the valves look like they have seen better days then use 8ba's. Does this include the Lifters? or just the valves and guides? 8BA oil pump and pickup.

I think you have it about right! I would not sink much money into the early crankshaft and rebuilding the 29A rods. Your money would be better spent on a 4" crank, later rods with insert bearings, etc.. Yes, you'll probably spend more, but you'll end up with a 255+ cubic inch engine and it is easier to build (for most people who are not familiar with full-floater rods).

As they say . . . there is "No replacement for displacement"

 

[42Ford M-H]

I've read about folks using SBC valves? is it worth going that route? And if the original lifters dont seem worn, then maybe find someone that can grind the valves to length. I hear the cams in flatheads last just about forever?

 

[flatheadmurre]

Newer style valves require newer style valveguides.
First check out the block and engine parts you have for wear and if you can reuse them..
Next check the size of the wallet...descide how serious build you are going to treat yourself to !
If youre talking porting and 4" crank new valves balancing...the snowball is rolling.

 

[GOSFAST]

I've read about folks using SBC valves? is it worth going that route? And if the original lifters dont seem worn, then maybe find someone that can grind the valves to length. I hear the cams in flatheads last just about forever?

First things first, you need to establish the cores you have are in decent shape?

With respect to the valve train I would avoid using any longer-than-stock valves, you'll cause yourself too much grief down the road trying to get the spring heights/pressures correct! The factory length valves work fine. We use/sell both but the stock Flathead lengths far outsell the longer pieces.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would strongly advise having the new guides bronzed-lined ahead of time, this procedure MAY also save much grief in the future, believe me, we sell hundreds of these valves and guides during any given year!

 

[Kahuna]

All the above is GOOD advice. I advise just do 3 things (all said above).
1) Magnaflux that block.
2) If it passes, Pressure test it.
3) If it passes the above 2 tests, and you want to do something later with it, have it Sonic tested.
All the above will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300.00.
In my opinion, the best money you'll ever spend on a Flathead block.

 

[42Ford M-H]

Well the good news so far is cleaning the sludge out of the lifter valley with diesel freed up the valves. Anyone know of any flathead machine shops in central ny that don't want to charge double just because of the word flathead?

I'm sure anyone can magnaflux the block.

What's a typical price for a good 4 inch crank?

 

[GOSFAST]

Hi "sceptre", you have a first name??

The pressure test on the casting is much, much more important than the "magging", no one can guarantee a valid casting unless it gets pressure tested!

Also recommended, find a shop that can bore/hone the block with a "block-plate" (pictured below), much better ring sealing with this method, and use some "moly" rings if possible! Cast rings really "rob" you of HP.

If you "search" some up here you'll find numerous "tips" to follow for a really reliable build. Some very simple, like drilling the lifter bores for easier ***'y.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Without knowing your actual budget, and assuming you need all the cores (crank, pistons, rods) I would consider a full kit with all new parts. This allows many more options including some add'l inches.

 

[CSArno]

I've heard about $400 for a good 4 inch crank. i actually started taking apart an 8CM today. i havent gotten to the crank yet to make sure its a 4 inch but chances are pretty good it is.
are you opposed to having someone do the engine for you?
if i were you even living in NY. i would toss all those parts in my truck and bring them to Walt Dupont in Gardiner Maine. He's here on the barn alot. Walt has been rebuilding flatheads for over 50 years. He has a great machine shop that does all his machine work and another shop that does all his cranks. I highly recommend having everything balanced.
You will not be disappointed with the outcome! i will tell you that a stock rebuild will run somewhere around $3000+. he can certainly make any mods that you want also.
most machine shops wouldnt unload a flathead off a truck, they just want to rebuild SBC's that a teenager can do.
maybe if you tear it down and have the block baked, shot peened and tested out there it would save you some headache if it was cracked.
just a thought.

Chris

 

[Bassman/NZ]

Forget putzing around on the internet. The world's BEST flathead experts are right here. Gosfast, Bored and Stroked, Ol Ron, JWL, Walt DuPont, brian, Pete are just a handful of the experts here. Listen to them, not a noobie with 3 posts to his name. The wealth of knowledge comes from building, driving and racing countless flatheads. There ignition specialists, cam specialists, carb specialists etc, etc.
Welcome to the Barn, and have fun!

 

[Bored&Stroked]

I've read about folks using SBC valves? is it worth going that route? And if the original lifters dont seem worn, then maybe find someone that can grind the valves to length. I hear the cams in flatheads last just about forever?

Keep in mind that if you're using the current stock mushroom valves, they may or may not be able to be ground to length - depending on if they have enough 'margin' left on the seat areas and without welding on the stems to increase the length. It kind of depends on where the seats line up, if valves can be swapped around, etc..

In the old days, one would do all the seat work, refinish the lifters (if needed), then measure/determine the correct valve lengths (with cam and lifters in the block), measure all the valves and also determine which ones can be re-used, then regrind them . . . then figure out the best way to maybe not have to weld up all of them (swap them around) - then weld the butts on the ones where it was needed, then grind them to the correct lengths. It is a bit of a time-consuming process if you've never done it, but back in the day - it was routine work and guys got pretty efficient at it. Plus - they had the equipment and experience to do it . . . flatheads were a dime a dozen around town.

The challenge today is to find anybody in your area who even understands what I just babbled, has the equipment, has the knowledge/experience and won't charge your your first and second born to do it. This is why a lot of guys just "punt", put in a late 49-53 setup and throw in some adjustable lifters

 

[42Ford M-H]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm not opposed to someone doing the rebuild, just figured it was out of my budget. 3k would be pushing the budget atm but maybe it's worth a phone call. What's the average price for said kit Gary?

My goal was to shoot for reliable motor maybe hitting 140-150 ish hp. I plan on leaving the truck 4x4 so it won't be a race truck by any imagination . I did run into someone that has a running 337 flathead? Heard they are hard to find parts for.

 

[JSeery]

Just to let you know, 140-150 hp takes a well built flathead. It is more toward a top end build. That type of engine would be very difficult to build for $3k.