5.5:1 Head or 6.0:1 Head?

jeepguy1948

Well-known member
Whether it’s true or not there seems to be a general belief that the 6.0 head is too much for a babbit motor. I really can’t see that 0.5 is enough to make much difference. I also have heard the the combustion chambers are different between the two heads.Both Bert’s and Snyders (it’s my understanding that Snyders is the one that actually makes the heads) are out of stock on the 5.5 head with Snyders saying that they are 4 months out.
 
You seem to have done a lot of reading of prior threads on this topic. I don't think you're going to learn anything by creating yet another thread on it. You'll just get the rehashed opinions of people who have only used one or the other and don't really know any more than you already do. If you can't tell whether one product or the other is better, maybe there isn't a noticeable difference between them and you can stop worrying.
 
What alexiskai says but I would add that the igniton timing becomes more critical as the CR rises. To manage that, you will probably need a new distributor that will not advance more than say, 22 degrees.
It is ignition timing that can damage Babbit, not the CR (but they are interrelated)
 
What alexiskai says but I would add that the igniton timing becomes more critical as the CR rises. To manage that, you will probably need a new distributor that will not advance more than say, 22 degrees.
It is ignition timing that can damage Babbit, not the CR (but they are interrelated)

I think he said in another thread that he was using an FSI distributor.
 
Yes, I am using an FSI centrifical advance distributor. This distributor was custom built for me and has an advance curve with 22 degrees maximum advance. Knowing this, I simply set my idle timing accordingly. I currently have it set with 4 degrees at idle for a total of 26 degrees advance
 
Yes, I am using an FSI centrifical advance distributor. This distributor was custom built for me and has an advance curve with 22 degrees maximum advance. Knowing this, I simply set my idle timing accordingly. I currently have it set with 4 degrees at idle for a total of 26 degrees advance

IMO, with a 6.5:1 CR , 26 degrees maximum advance is too much but there is another thing that would influence that - the octane rating of the fuel. Higher is better but also more expensive.
I'd like to see that set at about 2 degrees retarded at idle and 20 degrees max advance.
What say others?
 
As with the posts below.....I went with the Snyders' 6:1 head...BUT I quickly found that I needed to upgrade to an FSI distributor and coil. On the upside...I have a LOT more power...reduced double clutching down-shifts on hills, etc. On the down-side I had more blow-by increasing pressure in the oil pan and causing seepage along the gasket...forcing a gasket replacement. The 5.5:1 head MIGHT have been less problematic...but then it would have given me less HP!
 
This topic has seemingly been one of those topics where 'people only believe what seems believable to them.'

So allow me add some points to ponder;

1) -People have said that 6:1 Compression ratio is too much for cast (Babbitt) bearings however early Diesel engines with Babbitt bearings have survived reliably well under extreme load conditions ...and with compression ratios nearly 3 times greater than the aftermarket Model-A Head with 6:1 compression ratio. So how is this possible??

2) -Why is it that the first 'modern era' Model-A high compression Head that was so popular (-no telling how many Brumfield Heads sold from the 1980s thru the 2000s) had 5.9 compression ratio. So after all these users bragged that the 5.9 ratio was the perfect Cylinder Head for a Model-A it was determined that the 6.0 ratio Head would damage the Babbitt. :confused: :rolleyes:

3) -Back in the early era of the Brumfield (-along with other 6.0 ratio head manufacturers such as Winfield, et/al) there was not an aftermarket FSI Distributor used, -or needed. Model-A owners just used the trusty, reliable stock-appearing Model-A Distributor with great success. So why is it that one of these FSI Distributors are needed now? Is it advertising propaganda ...or was this started by someone trying to justify his Distributor purchase to his wife?? :eek: Likely a lot of both! ;)

A little backstory on First Street Ignitions from my recollections. Back in the 1970s, good replacement parts for the Model-A Distributor were difficult to find. A guy from Houston named Tommy Trailor decided he would reproduce Model-A Distributor Cams so he tooled and had them manufactured in Argentina. Truth being told, they were pathetic but many were sold. The Distributor Condensers available in that era (-this is before Al LePore began making a quality unit) were just about as pathetic as the cams. Ignition Points quality was all over the place too. Now during this era, a moving truck rental fleet that had industrial 330ci and 359ci Ford engines in their trucks were often plagued by ignition problems and reliability issues while out on rentals. In that same timeframe, an aftermarket truck lighting manufacturer developed an aftermarket electronic ignition system for industrial engine usage called the Ignitor. The two biggest retrofits that put the Ignitor on the map was the Volkswagen Bug & Dune Buggy retrofit, and with U-Haul retrofitting all of their 1960s & 70s truck engine distributors to electronic ignitions.

Then sometime in the late 1990s/early 2000s, a restoration shop in Oklahoma named First Street Restorations came upon the concept where adapting one of these Ignitor ignition systems into a stock Model-A Distributor would alleviate a lot of the struggles everyone was having with Model-A Distributor parts. I agreed, and actually bought in as a distributor/dealer for their retrofit kits. I sold & installed a lot of them. There were two major benefits to their system that solidified their marketing. The Ignitor system provided the individual ignition spark at precisely the exact timing between all 4 cylinders. This was a huge problem with the reproduction Model-A Distributor Cams during this time. The 2nd benefit that the First Street kit provided was they sold an Ignition Coil that provided a hotter spark when coupled to a triggering system that allowed more time for coil saturation. Effectively, their marketing was modern vehicles are using electronic ignitions, and so using a Model-A electronic ignition makes more power and is more reliable. People bought into this because it seemed believable. Then along came reproduction Dist. Cams from Bill Stipe that had a profile that was just as accurate as the First Street unit, and Bill designed the lobe where it allowed the Coil to have more dwell/saturation time. So, with the hotter coil along with Bill's Cam and LePore's Condenser, you had a reliable ignition system (-which reliability issues often plagued the First Street and the Nu-Rex electronic systems) that produced the same hotter spark. With the demand of the retrofit kits likely diminishing, First Street developed the next 'must have' which was the Zipper Distributor. Now Hobbyists were touting that their Model-A had huge power gains just by installing one of these new Distributors. Again, people believed what seemed believable. Being a dealer for First Street at that time, we installed a couple but we didn't see any noticeable performance gains. In full disclosure, we were testing it against a properly rebuilt Model-A Distributor fitted with a Stipe Dist. Cam, good quality Points and Condenser along with the original style Distributor timing set correctly. For the guys who had worn out stock Distributors with lobes that were flat, and burned-up Points, and a JC Whitney Condensor, these new Distributors likely did make a noticeable performance gain. Nonetheless, the debates here on Fordbarn during this era often became heated as people argued their opinions based on what seemed believable to them.

So ...if you are one of those that only believes that a Model-A high compression head requires the use of a FSI centrifugal Distributor, (-even when the first-hand experiences of others counters that opinion) then feel free to believe that. ;) :o
 
Brent, they need the FSI distributor with the centrifugal advance because they can't figure out (or don't want to be bothered) how to only advance the spark lever to about 22* BTDC or less with the 6.0 head, depending on engine RPM and load. The engine is run with too much advance, they start hammering out rod and main bearings, and then "HC head is bad for babbit" becomes the word of the day. :mad:

It's also to make driving the A easier for their wives. :D

.
 
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In reality the high compression heads Don't # out the babbitt it's the detonation that does from improperly Over advanced ignition like has already been stated many times and above!!!
 
If our current modern cars still had manual advanced ignition you would see a lot of people Driving with over advanced ignition detonating their engines and pounding out the bearings no bearing can withstand severe detonation for long in any engine!!!
 
>>"there seems to be a general belief that the 6.0 head is too much for a babbit motor."

If you pull apart six old engines, you will probably find the babbit is cracked and is flaking in five of them (with the original head).

Winfield supplied 6:1 and 7:1 heads back in the day. They are still in use.
The 7:1 was considered to be the sweet spot.
 
Jim and Full Race Flat Head have the correct response, Posts 10, 11, & 12.

A distributor with an automatic advance is thought to eliminate the need to manually adjust the ignition. Most new Model A owners do not understand how to adjust the ignition. They do not know how to search for the knee in the advance curve. It is worth while learning how to adjust the manual ignition which duplicates the computer controlled engine management systems on modern cars (the computer being under your hat). The centrifugal advance only accounts for rpm and not for the load on the engine.

To correctly eliminate the need to manually adjust the ignition you would have to install an engine management system with all the required sensors. While you are at it you could install a fuel injection system with all the sensors needed for that.
 
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early Diesel engines with Babbitt bearings have survived reliably well under extreme load conditions ...and with compression ratios nearly 3 times greater than the aftermarket Model-A Head with 6:1 compression ratio. So how is this possible??

The surface area of the bearings may have something to do with it.
 
To correctly eliminate the need to manually adjust the ignition you would have to install an engine management system with all the required sensors. While you are at it you could install a fuel injection system with all the sensors needed for that.
Knock sensors, crank fire ignition, individual coil packs, an ECU that reports back to Ford and of course the upcoming sealed hood (Mercedes already has it) because there are no "user serviceable" parts the owner is allowed to dabble with.
BTW: A lot of Jim Brierley's race engines over the years have run babbit bearings - and lived to tell the tales.
 
The surface area of the bearings may have something to do with it.

It could, ...but most people will tell you that the Model-A/B engines have way larger bearing surface than they needed to be.

Think of it this way, back when we were first pioneering insert bearing conversions on Model B engines, we used two bearings laid side-by-side (with a small gap between the two insert shells) on the front & center mains, ...and three bearings laid side-by-side on the rear main. More than enough surface area on a tame 6:1 ratio.
 
If anything, the large bearing surface compensates for the disruption in the wedge caused by the large criss-cross oil grooves.
 
While a great deal of priceless information has been posted here (particularly in relation to timing) this thread was originally started to discuss the 6.0 vs the 5.5.
 
I always recommend the 5.5 head over the 6.0 head because you get the performance benefit with the 5.5 without the risk of engine knocking due to too much spark advance that you will have with the 6.0 head.
 
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