38 C.O.E Newbie

1938COE

New member
Hello everyone. I'm a new owner of a 38 Cab over. Just got delivered today and cant wait to get started on it. The first concern of mine is to get new wheels and tires. I am looking for a nice set of original rims to buy that I can get blasted and powder coated. Any help would be appreciated. Where is a good place to buy tires?

Hope to get to know some of you an learn a bunch about these old trucks.

Thanks, Jeff
Indianapolis, IN
 
Welcome to Fordbarn Jeff. You have come to the best place for early ford information & discussion. My dad and I have a 39 pickup that is nearing it's restoration completion. Although your truck is a 38 coe, the 38-39 pickups are similar and there are a couple of other guys on here that can help you out as well.

As for tires, radials make for the best ride. Coker Tire and Diamond Back both sell radial tires that resemble the old bias ply look. Good luck with your truck. Post a bunch of pictures when you get time, we love pictures here on the barn.

Seth
 
my friend has a 38 COE and has Firestone bias truck tires from Coker on it. Does your truck have 2 speed rear axle? if not gears are 6:88 and it will only go about 45 mph comfortly, so why bother with radials?? post some pictures
 
First, I agree with alanwoodieman on tires. Universal Tire is another good source for original 20" tires.

The bigger question is why you think you need new wheels? Are your originals badly rusted or otherwise road damaged? The trucks of that era had two part wheels that are commonly called "locking ring" style. They can still be serviced if in good condition. These wheels predate the really bad killer wheels, commonly called "widow makers"/technically termed "Firestone RH-5°", of the late 1940s through 1970s. You might Google those terms to see diagrams and examples I've posted here and on other boards. Finding the older original locking ring wheels in narrow widths is becoming difficult but they are still out there in yards and at swap meets. I pick them up when I find them, but am at present down to only two.

When finding replacement wheels, it's critical that complete wheel rim/ring sets be found. Mix matching rim and ring designs is very dangerous. Stu
 
Stu, yes Ive been educating myself on the different styles out there. "Locking Ring" rims are what I have and the back rims are badly rusted. The fronts look to be ok but the rings look damaged. The 20" rims are bias-ply and need tubes...correct? I have read your posts on other options including the 22.5" rims to use with radials. I did call Americal wheel specialist in Wa and he is suppose to send me pictures of how the look. I have checked Coker tire an it looks like all I could find were the bias-ply tires in that size. I'm concerned with flat spots with the bias-ply's and worried it would be a bumpy ride once on the road. I plan on blasting the rims soon so we will see what i can save. Thanks for all the info. Looks like a great site here!
 
American Wheel Specialist, Juan Murillo, is a good man. I visited a few years ago and sat with him and his son talking wheels for most of a morning. At that time they didn't have a good reliable source for narrow 22.5" rims. A 6.75" is the ideal size because the narrowest 22.5 tires available today are 9R22.5s. Hopefully they have such a source now. These tires are gonna be about 38" tall which equates to an 8.25" x 20" tube type. My guess would be that you don't have tires that wide on your truck now. More likely 6.50 to 7.50 range that will, accordingly, also have a shorter outside diameter. Going too big will create rubbing issues I fear.

If you stay with 20" lock ring style, something you might read in period literature is that your truck came with either 5" wide or 6" wide rims. This gets confusing because the industry standard method of measurement back then was to measure across the outer rim lips. Today the industry standard is to measure down inside the wheel across the inner base. For this reason, an old 5" wide wheel is really a 3.75" by today's standard. And an old 6" is really 4.33" by today's standard. It's easy to mix apples and oranges when trying to describe what you have or need. If you can find part numbers on the back/concave sides of your rims I might be able to look them up and give you exact specs on them. Stu
 
"flat spots" are common when sitting, but in my experience go away with warm-up. Farm truck sit all winter, or even a radial tire truck that sits under a conveyor for days filling upespecially in winter hop like a rabbit until it drives a ways. With a hobby truck that doesn't go often will do that reguerdless.
My daily owner/operator tri-axle wasn't tubeless, or any others I worked on. I put enough air in the fixed tire to straighten out the tube and bolted them on, flat tire to the outside. That way an explosion would go inward & I could stand back a distance from it holding the chuck on by the long hose. Or you can get a chuck that latches on. Built a tire cage for a shop I worked in one time, but not worth the hassle when some extra effort shuffling tires will solve the problem. I had less trouble using a new $26 tube every time flat or replace, but patch the inside of the puncture is critical. But those are JMO.
Buddy just finished a '53 F5, had the stretch ring wheel originally and although he has a bunch of earlier parts trucks with split rims, he found a ser of late RV wheels & tires bolt on, his interest was not in being correct, but quick to get it on the road and to working.
 
I've assumed you were interested in keeping the truck original with 20" wheels. If going with tubeless wheels is an option you'd consider, you could also go with a set of the 19.5s. These are gonna have a shorter tire profile than a 22.5, obviously, but would be a closer match to the 6.50 or 7.50 x 20" outside diameter. An 8-19.5 bias ply or 8R19.5" radial will be about 34" outside diameter. I have a set of the 19.5s available if that's a direction you want to think about. Stu
 
Nice truck there 38COE. I just recently had my 41 wheels blasted and powdercoated. I thought my wheels and split rings were toast but they in fact were fine. I found a set of 750x20 Denman express highways locally, brand new for $360 a pair. They seem to be nice tires. Long story long, don't give up on those original wheels yet.

Good luck with the resto. Keep us in the loop and post up some pics.

cwh
 
Jeff.
Welcome aboard! I love the looks of the COE trucks. One word of caution, be extremely careful working with those wheels, they can cause serious injury or even death while inflating. Good luck with your truck and it would make a great looking antique car hauler.

shadetree
 
Stu, yes I plan on keeping it original as much as possible. If the original 20" are serviceable an I can get some tires for it, that's what I'll do. I know the rear wheels will be replaced due to rust and the fronts might need changed because of damaged ring locks.
I will definitely take a bunch of pictures during the resto for reference. Also, do most rebuild the flat head and run that or is there a better conversion for power? What about the rearend too? Is it better to run the original running gear or update it as well? I plan on driving the truck around town as a promotional piece for my beekeeping business. Farmers markets, parades etc. also, the local shows.

Picture20.png
 
closed drive shaft makes it a lenghty conversion to change out the rear end. My duddy with the 38 drives it to the feed store and to the lumber yard and to my house, as I said it is not fast but boy do you get the looks. He runs it up one of the major highways near here and the truckers go crazy, honking horns and flashing their lights. He runs the original 38 engine and 4 speed crash box (no synchronizers) and the low gear rear axle and has a ball!! If you want to go fast change everything to a modern engine-auto trans and rear end-that's up to you. By the way run a set of cab stacks with straight pipes-sounds wicked!
 
Jeff,

Congrats and welcome to the COE world...I've got a 47 COE (largely identical to a 38-39 COE). Here's a few pieces of info to clear the air.

1) Tires: Unfortunately, you can't get radials in 20" truck sizes. They don't exist. When companies started making tubeless radials, they developed the half-inch convention. Radial tires are 19.5", 20.5", 22.5", etc. This was to prevent people from putting radials on the old tube-type, multiple-piece rims. Due to the bead difference, a radial (even of the same size as the rim) won't seat properly on the old rims and the tubes can't be used inside a radial to hold the air - then you get the exploding tire/tube issue. That being said, bias-plys are fine for this truck. Unless you change the running gear, you won't go fast enough to need radials and, besides, once the bias plys warm up the flat spots go away and they're a bit softer than the radials.

2) Converting to radial rims: While 20.5" and 22.5" rims exist obviously, the real challenge is finding the correct ones to match Ford's five-bolt pattern if you stick to stock running gear. By the time radials and radial rims were available, Ford's not-so-common five-bolt pattern was long gone. I've heard International made rims briefly in the 1960s that fit the Ford pattern that were either 19.5" or 20.5" but I've never seen a set...this probably equates to the Holy Grail of Ford big truck afficianados.

3) Multi-piece rims: There are 2 types - the lock-ring-type and the 2-piece-type which have 2 halves that connect in the center (sometimes erroneously called "split rims" - split rims have the split across the tire and were never used on these trucks). The lock-ring is the factory Ford rim I believe but aftermarket manufacturers (Budd, Firestone) made both the lock-ring and 2-piece rims. Dimensionally, they are the same and therefore interchangeable. I've got a mix of them on my truck. Take heed of the warnings when working with the rims but they aren't as deadly as people might lead you to believe. These rims are a good design and do not spontaneously explode if handled properly.

4) Tire sizes: COEs (and other big Ford trucks) had a 1.5-ton rating if the rear axle is single-speed and a 2-ton rating for the 2-speed axle (I'm not sure the 2-speed axle was an option in '38 or not). My truck has 7.50-20 tires as it has a 2-ton rating/2-speed axle. 1.5-ton trucks had either the 6.00-20, 6.50-20 or 7.00-20 tires over these years. The smaller the tire, the lower total load rating for the truck (the operator's manual for the heavy duty trucks tells you this number). For your purposes, I'd pick the best tire that matches your taste as load rating won't matter much. I personally prefer the 6.50- to 7.50-20s as they match the wheel openings better than the smaller tires.

5) Rim sizes: While all the big truck rims are 20" in diameter, some folks have already mentioned that rim width is a factor. Earlier trucks had narrower rims which limits the size of tire. If you want a big tire, you need the wider rim. Ford made 5, 6 and 7 inch rim widths (check the green bible parts book for correct year application - it will tell you the width). Offhand, I don't know the pairings but if you're interested, I can find out and get back to you.

6) Original running gear: I've got mine all original and it runs around town just fine. Remember, these COEs were designed for in-town delivery (the truck is about 3 feet shorter than the standard cab trucks and the steering design gave a very tight turning radius which was essential for maneuvering in tight alleys and loading docks). Consequently, long haul highway gears it doesn't have... If your running gear is in good shape, I'd keep it.

7) Interchangeability of parts with other Ford trucks: The COE mechanicals are largely interchangeable with all the other big (standard cab) Ford trucks. Not much is interchangeable with the car/pickup except the engine and ignition parts. Trim and body are different except for small stuff (door handles, locks, windshield wipers, etc.) Big trucks have the non-synchromesh 4-speed vice the car/pickup 3-speed. Rear axles are all different. Suspension is unique to the COE although some hardware can be shared with other big trucks (front and rear parallel springs did not agree with Henry but were a necessity on the COE with more cab/engine weight over the front axle).

8) Closed vs. open driveshaft: I don't recall if the '38-'39 COEs had a closed driveshaft or not. If they do, you can swap to a younger trans with the open driveshaft and rear axle. My '47 COE has an open driveline and that change may have occurred around '40 or '42...don't know...I'd have to research it. The 4-speed trans didn't change much except the rear mount and yoke assembly and whether there is a reverse lock-out lever on the shifter.


Hope you have fun with it...I know I have with mine! If I've got any erroneous data, someone please pipe up. Send me a PM anytime you have questions...glad to share what I know and always want to learn if I don't.

COE Dan
 
1) Tires: Unfortunately, you can't get radials in 20" truck sizes. They don't exist.

Yes you can, they do exist, but you don't want them. When companies started making tubeless radials, they developed the half-inch convention. Radial tires are 19.5", 20.5", 22.5", etc. This was to prevent people from putting radials on the old tube-type, multiple-piece rims. I've never heard of, and have no manufacturer catalog references to 20.5" wheels/tires. Due to the bead difference, a radial (even of the same size as the rim) won't seat properly on the old rims and the tubes can't be used inside a radial to hold the air - then you get the exploding tire/tube issue. That being said, bias-plys are fine for this truck. Unless you change the running gear, you won't go fast enough to need radials and, besides, once the bias plys warm up the flat spots go away and they're a bit softer than the radials.

2) Converting to radial rims: While 19.5, xxxx, and 22.5" rims exist obviously, the real challenge is finding the correct ones to match Ford's five-bolt pattern if you stick to stock running gear. The 5 lug x 8" pattern was first used by Ford starting in 1934 and was used by almost all the medium duty truck manufacturers through the mid 1970s. It was heavily used on Ford and Dodge based motor homes. All the truck manufacturers sub'd out wheels to the same companies, i.e. Budd, Motor Wheel Corporation, Kelsey-Hayes, and later Accuride. The wheel manufacturers all used outer rims that were either made by, or at minimum designed and licensed by, Goodyear and Firestone. Ford never made these wheels. By the time radials and radial rims were available, Ford's not-so-common five-bolt pattern was long gone. I've heard International made rims briefly in the 1960s that fit the Ford pattern that were either 19.5" or 22.5" but I've never seen a set...this probably equates to the Holy Grail of Ford big truck afficianados. Actually no. Radials came on the truck market in the 1960s, but unfortunately tubeless truck wheels weren't able to handle the lateral loads imposed by these tires. I have a Budd Corporation SAE study that shows they had wheel failures attributed to radial tire usage. As a result, both Budd and Accuride, in their early catalogs, specifically state that warranties are voided if radials were mounted. After redesigning their products, the manufacturers coded wheels to show whether they were approved for radial tires. I have record of one 5 lug x 8" pattern 22.5" wheel, made by Accuride and listed in their 1982 catalog, that was radial approved. No Budd Company 22.5" was ever radial approved per my records. The 19.5" that was used heavily on motor homes is Budd #R89340. It is radial approved. These wheels are not real common, but do exist out there. I have several sets, and have one set available for sale.

3) Multi-piece rims: There are 2 types - the lock-ring-type and the 2-piece-type which have 2 halves that connect in the center Commonly called "widow makers", technically termed "Firestone RH-5°". (sometimes erroneously called "split rims" - split rims have the split across the tire and were never used on these trucks). Used on Dayton style demountable wheels, these rims are as dangerous as widow makers. The technical name for them is Goodyear "K" type. The lock-ring is the factory Ford rim I believe but aftermarket manufacturers (Budd, Firestone) made both the lock-ring and 2-piece rims. Dimensionally, they are the same and therefore interchangeable. I've got a mix of them on my truck. Take heed of the warnings when working with the rims but they aren't as deadly as people might lead you to believe. These rims are a good design and do not spontaneously explode if handled properly. Disagree, all can be deadly, but the lock ring style are generally safe once professionally assembled. Widow makers can and do explode spontaneously and should be pulled from service.

4) Tire sizes: COEs (and other big Ford trucks) had a 1.5-ton rating if the rear axle is single-speed and a 2-ton rating for the 2-speed axle (I'm not sure the 2-speed axle was an option in '38 or not). My truck has 7.50-20 tires as it has a 2-ton rating/2-speed axle. 1.5-ton trucks had either the 6.00-20, 6.50-20 or 7.00-20 tires over these years. The smaller the tire, the lower total load rating for the truck (the operator's manual for the heavy duty trucks tells you this number). For your purposes, I'd pick the best tire that matches your taste as load rating won't matter much. I personally prefer the 6.50- to 7.50-20s as they match the wheel openings better than the smaller tires.

5) Rim sizes: While all the big truck rims are 20" in diameter, some folks have already mentioned that rim width is a factor. Earlier trucks had narrower rims which limits the size of tire. If you want a big tire, you need the wider rim. Ford made 5, 6 and 7 inch rim widths (check the green bible parts book for correct year application - it will tell you the width). Offhand, I don't know the pairings but if you're interested, I can find out and get back to you.

Jeff and I have swapped notes on this already, but I'll go deeper into it. The late 1920s and 1930s were a time of rapid change for the wheel and tire manufacturers. During this era the National Wheel and Rim Association (NWRA) changed their method of recording tire sizes, and changed their method of measuring rim width. Specific to this discussion, they originally measured rim width across the rim from lip to lip. In the late 1930s or early 1940s, as best I can tell, they changed to measuring width across the inner rim at the base. Accordingly, what at the time was called a 5" rim, we today call a 3.75" rim. What was then a 6" rim is today called a 4.33" rim. During the 1940s the wheel manufacturers actually listed both these sizes side-by-side in the catalogs. By about 1950 they had completed the change over to the new NWRA standard.

6) Original running gear: I've got mine all original and it runs around town just fine. Remember, these COEs were designed for in-town delivery (the truck is about 3 feet shorter than the standard cab trucks and the steering design gave a very tight turning radius which was essential for maneuvering in tight alleys and loading docks). Consequently, long haul highway gears it doesn't have... If your running gear is in good shape, I'd keep it.

7) Interchangeability of parts with other Ford trucks: The COE mechanicals are largely interchangeable with all the other big (standard cab) Ford trucks. Not much is interchangeable with the car/pickup except the engine and ignition parts. Trim and body are different except for small stuff (door handles, locks, windshield wipers, etc.) Big trucks have the non-synchromesh 4-speed vice the car/pickup 3-speed. Rear axles are all different. Suspension is unique to the COE although some hardware can be shared with other big trucks (front and rear parallel springs did not agree with Henry but were a necessity on the COE with more cab/engine weight over the front axle).

8) Closed vs. open driveshaft: I don't recall if the '38-'39 COEs had a closed driveshaft or not. If they do, you can swap to a younger trans with the open driveshaft and rear axle. My '47 COE has an open driveline and that change may have occurred around '40 or '42...don't know...I'd have to research it. The 4-speed trans didn't change much except the rear mount and yoke assembly and whether there is a reverse lock-out lever on the shifter.


Hope you have fun with it...I know I have with mine! If I've got any erroneous data, someone please pipe up. Send me a PM anytime you have questions...glad to share what I know and always want to learn if I don't.

COE Dan

Mostly I agree with the member's comments, but have added what I know. Stu
 
1938 and 39 had closed driveshafts--COE for 1938 was the first year for a Ford made unit, until then they were made by outside contractors as conversions-someone posted a picture of a 36
 
See, I learned something. I wonder if you're the same Stu that sent the letter regarding the 2-piece rims to Vintage Truck a while back...

Regardless of opinion on the design and deadliness, I think we can all agree that one can never be too careful when dealing with a rim design with known limitations. Most of us are hobbists, not experts, so it pays to be doubly cautious.

I happen to prefer the lock-ring design as well but I need 2 more to make a complete set for my truck. Until then, I won't stop using my truck because I have the 2-piece rims.

As for Ford never making the lock-ring type, I have a couple NOS wheels that have either a stamped Ford part number or a painted/stenciled Ford part number on the rims. I would then assume that these were produced by a third party manufacturer exclusively for Ford dealer use? Anyone know?

I thought they made 20.5 inch tires but after a brief search, I concede I must have been mistaken...oh, how the memory warps so quickly...

COE Dan
 
Yeah, same Stu.

Ford put their own part numbers on all the wheels they used. For instance, here's a pic of a couple of the R89340 Budds I mentioned above. They have the Ford number stenciled, and on a paper tag. The Budd number, though, is stamped into the metal on the concave side along the drop center. Stu

photo6.jpg
 
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