I changed the timing chain on my '59 Edsel Ford FE 361 and now I have an engine knock. Any ideas on what this could be and how to know for sure? I read one thread where the owner said he forgot a spacer and that caused a knock. I don't remember there being a spacer. I did align the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear. Thanks for any advice. I'd like to get this big hunk of steel back on the road.
361 Engine Knock
- Thread starter AndrewZ
- Start date
39deluxecp
Senior Member
If I remember right, the early 332,352,361 FE had a coil spring and a button on the end of it to push the cam into the block. then in about 1962 or3 they started using the plate bolted to the block to hold the cam in place. those coil springs can break, causing the noise you described.
Yes 3 types that I know of, the button and spring, the retainer with separate C washer between cam and gear, then the gear with built in spacer. In my younger days I destroyed a engine by putting late style timing gear into a engine that had separate spacer still there. Sometimes you can fix stupid though, have measured camshaft end play since. BTW it was a 427 special cam and spiral lifters.
Ford Freak
Well-known member
BINGO ! Stenny nailed it ! The same problem ( knock ) can occur on 289/302/351 engines too w/some brands of chains , if the spacer is not installed . - F F
Thanks, guys, I really appreciate your input. I knew I couldn't drive the car until I got that knock figured out. So let me see if I have this right. My new replacement cam gear likely did not have the flange spacer that the original had so it needs maybe a 1/8" horseshoe spacer between the gear and the retaining plate?
Where is the knocking happening? Is it the gear or the chain hitting the timing cover? I have may 10 - 20 minutes of idle on the engine with the knock. I probably have some metal shavings in the oil pan, right?
Where is the knocking happening? Is it the gear or the chain hitting the timing cover? I have may 10 - 20 minutes of idle on the engine with the knock. I probably have some metal shavings in the oil pan, right?
Ford blue blood
Well-known member
If it is anything like the one I was given "because it was toast" the spacer missing caused the adjacent lifter to kiss it's next door cam lobe. Result was chipped cam lobes, metal in the pan and toasted lifters.
I would drain the oil into a clean pan. While this is going on, pull the timing cover and take a close look at the cover as well as the gear to see if there are any signs of contact. If you don't see anything it is likely the noise was caused by interference in the cam/lifter area. Once the oil is fully drained, take a close look at it to determine if there is any shiny metal floating in the oil or worse, metal chips in the bottom of the pan. If this looks good, put the spacer in, button it up and drive it. If you see metal in the oil you will need to pull the top end down to investigate. Be glad this is a FE motor and not an MEL as parts for those get really expensive, real fast.
. Next up I'll tear it down again and see what's under the timing cover, and get a spacer in there.I pulled things apart and I see a gash on the fuel pump arm
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNx4akcQXMPf6Y1qYZftl5FeVyvSf5JWnqhgF6P/photo/AF1QipM2h0yhUnN4h1VTqfMKzG1ZsVb8TIfdWOlHslB5
There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holder
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNx4akcQXMPf6Y1qYZftl5FeVyvSf5JWnqhgF6P/photo/AF1QipPqp4fylLj5OZ4qSPgrtViD-_dl_xahvwJlAVvf
And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNx4akcQXMPf6Y1qYZftl5FeVyvSf5JWnqhgF6P/photo/AF1QipNIZNB_1ChbRmrZqejxDRC_tXbflIn_9KGOYs0t
So I'm thinking the cam gear is displaced enough so that the elliptical is hitting the side of the fuel pump arm? The elliptical is not scraped or dented. It must be harder steel.
There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holder
And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next.
So I'm thinking the cam gear is displaced enough so that the elliptical is hitting the side of the fuel pump arm? The elliptical is not scraped or dented. It must be harder steel.
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
I pulled things apart and I see a gash on the fuel pump armhttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1.../AF1QipM2h0yhUnN4h1VTqfMKzG1ZsVb8TIfdWOlHslB5
There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holderhttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1.../AF1QipPqp4fylLj5OZ4qSPgrtViD-_dl_xahvwJlAVvf
And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next.https://photos.google.com/album/AF1.../AF1QipNIZNB_1ChbRmrZqejxDRC_tXbflIn_9KGOYs0t
My browser will not open the photos.
When you make a post and want to enter photos, there is a screen below the posting screen. Look for ATTACHMENTS and follow the directions.
I am interested in what you have.
THANX!
Attachments
KULTULZ
Well-known member
You have the early FE cam drive setup (58-62) shown on your photo. There is no spacer, only the tension of the spring holding the cam in the block.
The fuel pump actuating arm appears to have been eaten by the pump eccentric indicating the eccentric is not positioned correctly (or cam install), the arm may have not been square to the pump body or experienced damage on install (forcing).
Where did you find the timing set (Manufacturer and Part Number)?
The fuel pump actuating arm appears to have been eaten by the pump eccentric indicating the eccentric is not positioned correctly (or cam install), the arm may have not been square to the pump body or experienced damage on install (forcing).
Where did you find the timing set (Manufacturer and Part Number)?
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All I changed was the cam gear and the chain. I verified that the cam gear was an identical match as far as diameter and gears. I did not change the pump elliptical.
I did put a new fuel pump in and I noticed the new fuel pump went in a lot easier than the old one. Maybe it went in off kilter?
I did put a new fuel pump in and I noticed the new fuel pump went in a lot easier than the old one. Maybe it went in off kilter?
KULTULZ
Well-known member
Here's the thing, I believe that cam gear (58-62) was discontinued years ago as the normal service replacement went to fitting the 63/ gear (Alum) and spacer. You keep describing a spacer.
If you bought aftermarket, you need to know gear which you finally got and if it is correct.
It sounds confusing but it really isn't.
BTW, the 63/ cam gear was replaced in 1968 with an alum gear with nylon teeth and cast in spacer. You want to stay clear of this one also.
As for the pump, it may have been installed off-kilter and/or the cam drive is incorrect or the actuating arm is incorrect.
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
... hmmpf ...
I thought the early gear was unavailable (other than NOS). I stand corrected-
http://cloyes.mycarparts.net/products/Cloyes-S284?product_application_id=16023451036
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Hi and thanks for your advice and patience. The cam gear was after market but I haven't pulled it out yet. I should have it out in a day or two but I expect it does not have the spacer flange and will need a separate spacer. I'll post photos when I get it out.
I am prepping my other Edsel for trip across 2 state lines to the Early Ford V8 Club meeting tomorrow in Fitchburg, MA. It will be my first road trip in this car.
I am prepping my other Edsel for trip across 2 state lines to the Early Ford V8 Club meeting tomorrow in Fitchburg, MA. It will be my first road trip in this car.