The pile of parts I purchased that resembles a 29' RPU came with doors with outside latch holes. I'm doing a newbie amateur resto with my sons, and would like to make reasonable efforts to do an accurate 29' driver. My question: should I re-skin the existing doors with non-outside latch skins, find another set of doors, patch over the outside latch holes, or just put outside latches on what I've got?
29' RPU doors
- Thread starter Hoppers29
- Start date
Mike Peters
Well-known member
Outside door handles are correct for '29 RPU. Just stay the course. Sounds like a nice family project with your sons.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Boyz, I'm not sure where you are coming up with that information but I'm pretty sure outside door handles were NOT used on any of the 76A open-cab models.
As to Hoppers29 question, you can add a piece of sheetmetal to block-off the hole (-no real need to replace entire skin for just that) however do understand the door latches are not the same between the outside door handle latch and the inside door handle latch. The correct one uses a vertical lever like the 1928 open bodystyles doors.
BTW, welcome to Fordbarn!! Good luck with your project and wishing you many enjoyable hours with your sons on this project!!
Mike Peters
Well-known member
This is interesting. I assumed that the RPU 76-A door changes would be the same as the regular roadsters 35-A. The RGJS says as much. The first photo is area 15, exterior plating. The second photo is heavy commercial vehicles, AA trucks. Refers right back to area 15. Am I reading this right?
BUT,, DeAngelis says that when the various changes were made to the cars, the left over old parts were used up in commercial vehicles. That would explain an original 1929 76-A rpu with NO door handles. They used up any left over inside handle doors on pickups and AA's.
Now, the original poster states that his rpu doors currently does have outside handles, unless his doors somehow came from a roadster. That tells me that it went both ways in 29 for trucks. Does that make sense? If so, then we are all correct, but the RGJS does not address that.
BUT,, DeAngelis says that when the various changes were made to the cars, the left over old parts were used up in commercial vehicles. That would explain an original 1929 76-A rpu with NO door handles. They used up any left over inside handle doors on pickups and AA's.
Now, the original poster states that his rpu doors currently does have outside handles, unless his doors somehow came from a roadster. That tells me that it went both ways in 29 for trucks. Does that make sense? If so, then we are all correct, but the RGJS does not address that.
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Mike Peters
Well-known member
Another thought. Perhaps the doors of the original poster were changed over to outside handles. If this is all true, then the RGJS needs to be updated.
Joe K
Well-known member
I just spent 10 minutes scanning pix of the search term IMAGES: Model A 76A Roadster Pickup, and found only one with door handles, shown below.
(The pix is not amenable to being brought directly as a large photo.)
But this one clearly has a door handle with a broken spring.
But this the ONLY one I found.
The explanation given up above about "outmoded parts transferred to the truck line" is credible. Ford was well known for trucks with "black" interior chrome as a way to use a perfectly functional but appearance defective gear shift lever or instrument panel.
Joe K
(The pix is not amenable to being brought directly as a large photo.)
But this one clearly has a door handle with a broken spring.
But this the ONLY one I found.
The explanation given up above about "outmoded parts transferred to the truck line" is credible. Ford was well known for trucks with "black" interior chrome as a way to use a perfectly functional but appearance defective gear shift lever or instrument panel.
Joe K
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Ummm, the Standards aren't saying it that way to me. I am not seeing any reference to the 76-A in your first picture nor does it list the 76A bodystyle as using the exterior handle. I do agree that it does refer you to the passenger car latches however knowing they used the 1928 open passenger-car inside lever latch on the 76A truck, I would suspect that is what they are referring you to.
George was a great guy however he did make printed errors in his publications. Ford engineers were making constant upgrades when financially prudent for them but they did not "use up left over parts". The foremen had job tickets that specified an exact amount of each item to be made. Ford engineers knew exactly how many items would be manufactured and which vehicle it was slated to go on down to the date & time it would be installed. Items not used during assembly were shipped to the Parts Depots and slated as Service Replacement parts.
Now the defining portion of this debate is found on the factory A-35655/56-A lock print and the 35655/56-AR prints. Ford's nomenclature for latch is 'Lock' assembly. At the top of the print it only specifies the 35655/56-AR Lock to be used on the 76-A bodystyle.
Joe, good to see you posting again. I gotta argue the picture you found (below in full size) is NOT really a credible example IMHO to validate the exterior handles. I doubt the non-authentic top, the bed, nor the step plates qualify this pick-up as an unmolested example to use as a credible reference, and as such, probably should not be used. Too much has been changed on this 'rough' export example.
Your comment about Ford using "black interior chrome" is not accurate IMO. It is true that in late 1929 when the four-speed transmission was introduced, they all had Black painted shift levers. Prior to this time, the AA used the same items as a passenger car. The same applies with the Instrument Panel and the Hand-brake Lever. I would be interested in hearing Neil's take on this but I am pretty sure the print only specifies the A-2705-R finish to be Butler. Although there were a few vehicles that had Black brake handles, I believe those were likely Nickel underneath and the Truck outfitter likely over-sprayed in Black. I have never seen reference to a Black finish referenced on the A-11805-* panels.
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Joe K
Well-known member
And yes I had a thought that this might be an "offshore" truck aimed at a market outside of the US - and possibly sent over in a box and "for assembly" and likely "more complete" in a parts sort of way as a way to forestall assembly difficulties?
Well, I still say it seems that most all of the RPU shown on the Internet are minus exterior handles? That was the point of my post.
As to the black interior treatment of trucks, my own would be example. And - when the black gearshift was stripped for plating a "wart" was found in the butler finish where the copper showed through. Alas, this defect was "dressed over" in the replating butler-nickelizing - so there goes the proof.
I don't think there ever were "instructions" on using up parts on the truck line - or numbers kept. It was simply done in line assembly as "expedient." Their first objective was to get out as many "units" as they possibly could in a day - however they could do it. And doubtless the challenges came at them repeatedly.
We don't know a lot about assembly. I've discussed earlier the 4.11 rear ends and speculated that the early "full taper" torque tubes were reserved for designation of the 4.11, once production got rolling and they were past the early 3.7 gear ratio where this full length taper design attribute has been noted. My truck came with a 4.11 rear - and a taper tube. It also had a whole bunch of other "transitional" changes like a Powerhouse Generator, Type H headlights, Drum tail light, all features which by March 1929 were pretty much gone for the passenger cars.
Maybe saying the trucks were "made of parts" is a bit much. My own truck was assembled in Somerville, MA (code stamped under the cab seat) and I imagine - but can't be sure - "it came in a box."
The question HAS to be asked. Does anyone own or have seen a domestic RPU with outside handles? IIRC the question has been asked here before.
Joe K
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BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Joe, two or three comments regarding your opinions above in post #12. Based on my own research, many of your procedural statements written above are not accurate when compared to Ford's information written in Foreman's logs, Engineer Information notes, and even information found on assembly drawings. Surely we need to agree that just because you have speculation or have imagined how something could have been assembled really does not make it correct,-especially if you are giving advise or guidance to someone else. Surely you would also agree that just because a picture is found on the internet does not confirm the authenticity of something. Door handles in this case.
Let me finish with this, contrary to your belief about lack of 'instructions' or 'numbers kept', ...or daily challenges, I would encourage you to research this much further at places like Benson. When you do, I think you will realize differently. Ford was insanely organized and very methodical in the manufacturing process and the assemblage of the Model-A/AA. Quality Control is what made the Model-A such a success. In the rare instance that a defective part was placed on the conveyer line for installation, to believe an employee would purposely install a defective part is absurd since they would be grounds for being fired when there were many others waiting outside for a chance to be hired. Then to believe that a random can of Black paint just happened to be in the plating room or on the assembly line to paint a defective gear shift lever is not likely either. And to think that final Q/C at the end of the assembly line, -or even at the Agency would allow this to slip-by is too far-fetched.
Mike Peters
Well-known member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtT0XmEJs-I
Here's a 29 with outside door handles. Whether or not this truck originally came with outside handles is anyone's guess. When I restored my 28 Phaeton from a basket case, one of the two front doors had an outside handle, so obviously it was not original to the car. The other three doors had inside handles. I simply welded the outside hole shut on that door and installed an inside latch mechanism. Inside and outside door handle latches interchange on 28-29 open cars.
I google searched 29 rpu's and nearly all of the pictures did NOT have outside door handles. So from photos on the net, it would appear that most rpu's in 29 had inside handles.
Here's a 29 with outside door handles. Whether or not this truck originally came with outside handles is anyone's guess. When I restored my 28 Phaeton from a basket case, one of the two front doors had an outside handle, so obviously it was not original to the car. The other three doors had inside handles. I simply welded the outside hole shut on that door and installed an inside latch mechanism. Inside and outside door handle latches interchange on 28-29 open cars.
I google searched 29 rpu's and nearly all of the pictures did NOT have outside door handles. So from photos on the net, it would appear that most rpu's in 29 had inside handles.
McMimmcs
Well-known member
Joe K
Well-known member
I would not presume to give advice to anyone. Rather I can speculate - and said so.
Others can speculate likewise - until the "type study" of the Model A is completed based on Benson level proof. The Judging Standards are not yet all inclusive. I have seen them improved twice in my lifetime. And that's not counting the "addenda" that are periodically released.
And, it is a "discussion board" - not a continuing quality assurance review.
And you, like me, will I expect give some room for alternate possibilities.
NOBODY is an expert - yet.
Best reply to any previous comment is the one that begins "In my experience..." Readers can take what they will.
Joe K
So THIS is what an opened can of worms looks like! I first learned of this outside door latch issue after posting a picture of my truck on one of the FB groups and someone quickly pointed out I had the "wrong doors". Rather than spend the next 40 years of my life fielding comments like this both on the net and in the real world, I think I'll either switch them out or weld up the holes and switch to the correct inside latch. Incidentally, I also like the look without outside latches.
More importantly, last week we started the engine for the first time in over 40 years. It was so quiet that my son asked from behind the wheel - Dad, is it even running?
More importantly, last week we started the engine for the first time in over 40 years. It was so quiet that my son asked from behind the wheel - Dad, is it even running?
Joe K
Well-known member
I wouldn't necessarily rush to a change. Still I think we've pretty much convinced everyone that RPUs generally did not have outside handles - at least in the US.
But that is not to say that yours can't have outside handles.
A Model A Ford is - besides a Ford production - a history. It can tell the story of those who owned it before you. And theirs is a story which you can "erase" if you wish - it's your car. Or you can let it "stand" as a sort of testament to those who went before you - and how plentiful parts were back "in the day."
The owner of the truck may have owned a phaeton, and decided he wanted handles on his RPU too? And at the junkyard in 1937 a pair of doors only cost $2.50. Dad paid all of $15 for his entire RPU in 1937. And sold it back to the junkyard in 1941 for $15.
My own truck has its own story. I've commented about the "outdated" features that show on my truck. But that is only part of the story. Another part might be the as found originally "red", obviously aftermarket, engine - probably a Sears replacement?
This red engine has NO number in the number block. It's must be one the various "escapees" who never made it to numbering, possibly a group of engines sold to Sears or Allstate or whomever by Ford. I vary in thought on how to deal with that blank number pad: put my CC truck frame number on it as "nearest to original", put a number like 20000001 in the spot as a sort of "joke", or something else...
I have a green 1930 engine (told by its numbering) and for us in NH, numbers/VID/registration is not a problem as long as the number shows on the car SOMEWHERE. This engine I had rebuilt in the 1980s and have driven it some miles in the car.
But my mind goes back to that red not stamped engine. I have half a mind to rebuild it, repaint it red and pretty with black "attached parts", and leave the number pad unstamped.
Just as I found it.
The car survived that way for probably 70K miles (the odometer was 143K when I bought the car.) And why not do it up like that as a sort of "testimonial" to the car and its history? It is a "survivor."
I mean EVERYONE has a green engine. But what about those "aftermarket" people - whose story is being deleted engine by engine as they all turn green. Don't they deserve a mention in history?
"Hey why is your engine red? Aren't they supposed to be green."
A "discussion starter" and a story. We all have stories...
Joe K
But that is not to say that yours can't have outside handles.
A Model A Ford is - besides a Ford production - a history. It can tell the story of those who owned it before you. And theirs is a story which you can "erase" if you wish - it's your car. Or you can let it "stand" as a sort of testament to those who went before you - and how plentiful parts were back "in the day."
The owner of the truck may have owned a phaeton, and decided he wanted handles on his RPU too? And at the junkyard in 1937 a pair of doors only cost $2.50. Dad paid all of $15 for his entire RPU in 1937. And sold it back to the junkyard in 1941 for $15.
My own truck has its own story. I've commented about the "outdated" features that show on my truck. But that is only part of the story. Another part might be the as found originally "red", obviously aftermarket, engine - probably a Sears replacement?
This red engine has NO number in the number block. It's must be one the various "escapees" who never made it to numbering, possibly a group of engines sold to Sears or Allstate or whomever by Ford. I vary in thought on how to deal with that blank number pad: put my CC truck frame number on it as "nearest to original", put a number like 20000001 in the spot as a sort of "joke", or something else...
I have a green 1930 engine (told by its numbering) and for us in NH, numbers/VID/registration is not a problem as long as the number shows on the car SOMEWHERE. This engine I had rebuilt in the 1980s and have driven it some miles in the car.
But my mind goes back to that red not stamped engine. I have half a mind to rebuild it, repaint it red and pretty with black "attached parts", and leave the number pad unstamped.
Just as I found it.
The car survived that way for probably 70K miles (the odometer was 143K when I bought the car.) And why not do it up like that as a sort of "testimonial" to the car and its history? It is a "survivor."
I mean EVERYONE has a green engine. But what about those "aftermarket" people - whose story is being deleted engine by engine as they all turn green. Don't they deserve a mention in history?
"Hey why is your engine red? Aren't they supposed to be green."
A "discussion starter" and a story. We all have stories...
Joe K
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rotorwrench
Well-known member
Model A engines were used in the Gleaner Baldwin combine harvesters starting in 1930 with the Model A. Gleaner had a history with Ford using the Fordson tractor as the basis for the early self propelled models. Gleaner made a number of similar models using the Ford industrial 4-cylinder engines right up to World War II. Ford had a separate assembly line for these engines and they used the subcontracted block casting known as the diamond block after production shut down for the model A vehicles. They had no model A number issued. Some of the manufacturers that used these industrial engines put their own serial numbers on them but not all.
A person can always look for the diamond casting mark near the timing gear cover. Ford also sold new spare replacement parts that may have not been marked. Not all model A type engines were painted green and anyone with a can of paint and a brush can change the color.
A person can always look for the diamond casting mark near the timing gear cover. Ford also sold new spare replacement parts that may have not been marked. Not all model A type engines were painted green and anyone with a can of paint and a brush can change the color.
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