24 or 25?

[mhsprecher]

I bought a Model T in the fall that had been in a garage since 1964 or so. It did not have a title, so in the process of getting it titled, I wanted to figure out what year it is? The engine is a 24, but it had some 25 characteristics, primarily 21" black wood spoke wheels. Today I looked at the Restoration and Judging Guidelines from the MTFCI and here is what I came up with:

Hood apron has a hole with a grommet for the headlight wire and carriage bolts like a 25; tail light attaches to spare tire mount, like a 25. Door striker is vertical with 3 screws. Standards say vertical with two screws for a 25, vertical for a 24. Aluminum body tag on inside of firewall has four rivets, like a 24. Floorboards appear to have a deflector, like a 25. Carb linkage appears to be 25, but serial number is for a 24. Front spring has 6 leaves and Hassler shocks.

I realize that Model Ts got modified over the years, so anything can happen. It does seem to be a 25, except for the firewall patent tag.

What do those wiser than I think? Photos included for most most items discussed.

 

[stevests]

A "true" '25 would have a 2 rivet patent plate, a 2 rivet hand brake quadrant & pressed steel inside firewall uprights rather than wood.

 

[redmodelt]

How about some photos of the whole car, what is the engine number, what body style? It looks like a closed car latch.

 

[mhsprecher]

I should have mentioned that it is a coupe. This isn't a great photo. It is from the garage before I removed the car. You can see the band Redmodelt talked about. I can't tell whether it is a 24 or 25 from that band.

 

[rotorwrench]

You will need a number for the DMV so the engine number may be your only source. Frames weren't stamped till 1926 unless a dealer or owner stamped it. 1924 is the year that the Rouge production started picking up so there were already inconsistencies in numbering due to production at both Highland Park and the Rouge plants.

 

[redmodelt]

Under the windshield there is a belt molding. Does it look to be a nailed on piece (aluminum 1924) or formed stamping (steel 1925). While there may be some overlap, this can be one way to tell between 24 and 25.

 

[mhsprecher]

Serial number is 9788119.

 

[redmodelt]

That number would be April 26, 1924

 

[mhsprecher]

Right, but the car has a number of 1925 characteristics, as outlined in my initial post.

 

[tmodelman]

Most all the feature you have noted are 1924 model year. The carb shows '24 needle valve control, the tea cup tail lamp mounted to license plate is '24, deflectors on upper floor boards were on '24's.


The 21" split demountable wheels would be '25, wondering if the spare rim carrier is for clincher 30" or does the 21" split rim fit, although the carrier may have been changed when the wheels were added.

 

[29spcoupe]

Many Model T's had parts/characteristics of more than one year. Ford did not change parts from one model year to another, but used up the older parts until they were gone. Non-starter cars very often would have clincher rims and tires whereas the starter cars had the 21 inch wheels with balloon tires. Don't try to date the car by the characteristics or parts. Use the engine number. But in the last 90 years or so, that could have been changed too.

 

[mhsprecher]

I was going down the SN path until someone pointed out some 25 parts to me. Without a title, it is hard to know for sure, hence the interest in trying to nail that down. Maybe I am worrying too much about that. Nice to know, however. Easy to change wheels and engine.

 

[rotorwrench]

You would be hard pressed to claim anything other than what number you currently have for ID. Even if it is a 1925 car with an earlier motor, you would still have to find a 1925 numbered motor block to get it up to snuff.

Ford has a long history of changing or updating parts on the fly. This obsoletes earlier parts if Ford made the choice not to produce them in their legacy replacement part scheme and the replacement parts were either a direct fit or could be made to fit. The other fact is that many owners took it upon themselves to repair or update their cars with what ever parts were available including salvage yard parts.

With enough persistence, you can make it into a 1924 or a 1925 if you choose to go by judging standards and performing the research to get the right stuff but it will take some time and more money to get there. It may be easier to build it utilizing the characteristics of the majority of parts you have in hand then update or change it as you go. If you want a 1925 then you will still have a lot of 1924 parts. You can never have too many old Fords but your significant other (if you have one) may not think the same way.

 

[mhsprecher]

It is a pretty good survivor. I am going to do little more than it needs to be safe and roadworthy.

That will be quite a bit, as the wood on one side needs replacing and there is some body work to do. It may have original paint or was a very old repaint. I rescued it from decades in a basement garage and will do only what is necessary. Because I have to get a title, I wanted to get what I could in order to be accurate for those purposes.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

The fenders on a 1925 are totally different then 1924's. They flare out at the bottom, and then turn in at the running board, can't mistake them for any other year. I even think they they are a little wider.

Herm.

 

[tmodelman]

Herm is correct, fenders can be the better tip off.


But then, if the T has been molested then that is moot. Most times you can sleuth the chassis and fasteners to see what is likely from the branch assembly and what may have been changed in 90+ years.


While Ford did use up parts at branches, the inventory planning was very tight to maintain costs, so a reasonably preserved T will exhibit typical model year parts.


As for the '25 fenders, look for the rear of your coupe fenders to have a 'duck tail' flare at the end, that is indeed '25, a '24 won't have 'em. And the front fenders on the '25 will have the wider raised molding bead go under and disappear under the splash shield, the '24 follows the pattern of the splash shield edge and is visible with the narrow bead. '25 front fender on left in photo.

 

[mhsprecher]

Thank you very much, Herm and tmodelman. By the fenders, I think it is a 24. I need to reduce the size of my photos of the fenders in order to publish them.

Thanks to everyone for their help. It has been an educational experience.

 

[mhsprecher]

Here are photos of the back of the rear fenders.

 

[Royce P]

The carb linkage looks typical of 1923 - late 1925. Everything that is hard to change suggests that you have a '24, the VIN, the door strikers, the patent plate. I would title it as a '24 since that's what it is.

 

[mhsprecher]

Thanks, Royce. I was hoping that you would chime in.