2011 - the year of the bodywork..

thebanjoman

thebanjoman

Senior Member
The drivetrain is just about complete. I'm now moving on to the next phase,

Body work. No budget to farm it out so I'll be undertaking it myself. I've welded in replacement panels when I was younger on my old GTO, Camaro, and Blazer, mostly 60s/70s stuff so I 'think' I could tackle what I have to do here.

Rather than post lots of large detailed pictures here I've posted a link on photobucket where I took photos when I pulled the body off this summer.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/thebanjoman1963/

From many of the postings I've seen and read here this body is in better shape than some have had to start with but I would like some opinions on how to best to tackle some of the bigger problems that are seen in the photos.

The side rails, the rear panels and the cowl sections. I'll be replacing the floor panels completely where the hole was cut for mounting the battery in the rear (why it was done is still a mystery) and the panel under the seat. The underside and rear fenders and panels are loaded with undercoating, in some places more than 1/4 thick.

The side rails are going to be the biggest source of angst for me as I don;t know if I should attempt a full replacement or try and cut and patch what I have. Under the doors seem very solid, the rear and front sections are toast.

The doors are also filled with pits and I wonder if they can be saved or should be re skinned.

I'd love to hear your thoughts or opinions on how you would tackle it and if you've done what I have to do would you share your approach. Anything to help me not make mistakes or mis steps to have to do something over. I'd rather listen first and ask questions before grabbing tools diving in.

The pictures don't show all the flaws and it will take me probably all of 2011 to complete.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Wow, where to start!! My suggestion for the moment is to list all the tools & resources you have at your disposal. Next I would suggest you remove all of the floorpans and remove all of the rusted/damaged areas you plan to repair to expose the infrastructure.

Then find a suitable mediablaster that can capably media blast the entire body. THEN you can make a detailed list of all the areas that will need to be addressed. At that time we can coach you thru each step.

We all know that we can eat a huge 4 course meal however you do it one bite at a time as you pace yourself. Making plans right now will likely find yourself making alternate plans later on because there is so much that you are not seeing right now.

.
 
If you allready have experience doing what you are contemplating, then you may have a good idea what you need in the way of tools. If not, then you need some training and for sure lots of practice, which you will have when finished.

TIG welder, cut off tool, die grinder, 19 gauge sheet metal and others to match the subframe, panel clamps, welding magnets, copper backups for welding, hammer and dolly set, etc.
 
If you sandblast the doors and the pits are not holes and there is sufficient metal left, so there is no softness or oil canning, bondo is quite OK to fill.
 
Logan said:
what does the term oil canning mean?
Click to expand...

It's when a large panel can over center and pop, like when you push on the bottom of an old oil can.

Sometimes large flat panels in trunk areas of newer cars had that problem in the 80's. Some well placed hammer blows would stop it.
 
I have a 31 coupe which I completed about 3 years ago. I did most of the work myself except for the finish body work and painting. My coupe had similar rot problems as your photos indicate. My goal for the level of restoration I wanted was to have a nice car that was for the most part as original as I could make it within practical reach. I am an engineer and have reasonably good hand skills but not at a level of a high end professional car restorer nor do I have an open check book. I also wanted my car to be a driver. If you are not going for a national champion I would completely remove the body subrails and replace them with new pieces which are readily available through the part suppliers. You can either rivet them or mechanically fasten and weld the attachment points. The rotted area within the rear wheel wells can be easily covered by welding in new replacement panels. The other rotted areas can all be repaired with welded in panels. For the most part your body looks to be in good condition which should save a lot of time in getting it ready for final finishing & painting.
Good luck, you have a nice car.
Jack in CT
 
I would repair the sub-rails they hardly require any work. Oil canning will happen when the metal is over stretched. I use a shrinking disc and my stud gun with a shrinking tip, you can also use a torch also to shrink panels.
 
Banjoman,
It looks to me like your car is in pretty decent shape from the pictures you posted. I am just finishing a 28 special coupe (similar to your coupe) that was in worse condition than your car is (it was made into a crude pickup). I would recommend you just cut out the rusted out areas and weld in patches. I made my own patches for the fender wells (including stiffening ribs) and bottom of the cowl panels. I have lot of pictures that show what I did. If you want to see some of them, I can send them to you. I try to save as much original sheetmetal as I can when doing a repair. I did dismantle the whole car - gas tank and cowl section (easy), roof section (harder) and the quarter panels (kind of tough). I too had rusted out subrails, and once the car was dismantled, it was pretty easy to patch them with some 16 gauge homemade patches. The problem with repro subrails and for that matter, most repro sheetmetal panels, is they don't fit correctly and don't look right either. With a little effort and some 19 or 20 gauge sheetmetal, you can make the repairs and have them look good. You do need a good pressure sandblaster (big compressor to run it) and a good inert gas MIG welder (or TIG, but they are kind of pricey) - I used a MIG and am happy with the results. Good luck with your restoration.
Rusty Nelson
Lakeville, MN
 
wrndln said:
Banjoman,
It looks to me like your car is in pretty decent shape from the pictures you posted. I am just finishing a 28 special coupe (similar to your coupe) that was in worse condition than your car is (it was made into a crude pickup). I would recommend you just cut out the rusted out areas and weld in patches. I made my own patches for the fender wells (including stiffening ribs) and bottom of the cowl panels. I have lot of pictures that show what I did. If you want to see some of them, I can send them to you. I try to save as much original sheetmetal as I can when doing a repair. I did dismantle the whole car - gas tank and cowl section (easy), roof section (harder) and the quarter panels (kind of tough). I too had rusted out subrails, and once the car was dismantled, it was pretty easy to patch them with some 16 gauge homemade patches. The problem with repro subrails and for that matter, most repro sheetmetal panels, is they don't fit correctly and don't look right either. With a little effort and some 19 or 20 gauge sheetmetal, you can make the repairs and have them look good. You do need a good pressure sandblaster (big compressor to run it) and a good inert gas MIG welder (or TIG, but they are kind of pricey) - I used a MIG and am happy with the results. Good luck with your restoration.
Rusty Nelson
Lakeville, MN
Click to expand...


Thank you for your input.

I have read many postings about the fit and quality of replacement metal and am seeing this firsthand with the front cowl patches I have already purchased.

I feel confident that I have the skills and the tools to fix the fenderwell areas and the rear section of the subrails and the trunk holes. The front of the rails with the contours and complex bends are where I wouldn't feel like I could properly fix without replacement pieces. I couldn't hand form this.

The center of the rails appear to be solid and if I could get away with patching both ends without having to completely replace it would seem to be the right approach. Removing the quarter panels to get at the rear to repair or cutting a section out to work, I don't know which would be best.

The more I contemplate the effort that will be required here I will probably just have to wait and gather funds to pay to have the body blasted as I don't have the means to do something this big and then see what I have to work with. I've been all over the place determining what/where best to spend my money.

I built a crude 4x6 blasting cabinet with 2x4s, tarp pieces, and an old work shirt that is working out great and is big enough to get the entire front cowl, the gas tank, and the wheels as well as other things and its serving the purpose. I still wear my respirator even though things are contained in the cabinet just to be safe. I've got plenty of air from the 80 gallon 1962 Curtis compressor that was my Dads. My Miller 210 MIG is more than adequate for my needs and I've even patched the very thin 22ga foreign auto sheetmetal with it so I can make it do what I want. My copper spoon made from a smashed flat pipe appears to do OK.

This will be the only car I rebuild in my lifetime. Calling it a restoration isn't probably a proper term as my father-in-law made changes to the original with hydraulic brakes and other things. I intend to return it to as close as possible driver. It will never be in a show, probably only gawked at when we take it out and we'll enjoy it for as long as we are able.

I was hoping that by posting photos that I could get some comments on 'what would you do' to help me try and make sensible choices so that I don't head in the wrong direction and spend time and money I don't have to do something over or did it in the wrong order.
 
The work I did on my 1930 coupe wasn't much different that what you have to do. For your needs, I would not replace body subframes, not even in the front section. I would spend a lot of time cutting out bad sections, making replacement pieces, fitting them and then welding them in, grind off weld. Do these in several small pieces if necessary. This way you don't have to realign the body and drill new holes for body mounting, etc.

The patch that someone did to the rear wheel wells looks a little ugly. If the fender mounting bolts are still solid or could be welded solid, I'd re-cut along the same line used before. At this point you will have the rear subframe opened up enough to see what you need to replace and work on. When it's ready to close up, then cut, fit, and butt weld in some patch panels. Most of all the other areas, you can make your own patch pieces. Just takes a lot of time.

If you could buy, make or borrow a rotisary to sping the body on, you would be way more productive.
 
Last edited:
Mitch said:
The work I did on my 1930 coupe wasn't much different that what you have to do. For your needs, I would not replace body subframes, not even in the front section. I would spend a lot of time cutting out bad sections, making replacement pieces, fitting them and then welding them in, grind off weld. Do these in several small pieces if necessary. This way you don't have to realign the body and drill new holes for body mounting, etc.

The patch that someone did to the rear wheel wells looks a little ugly. If the fender mounting bolts are still solid or could be welded solid, I'd re-cut along the same line used before. At this point you will have the rear subframe opened up enough to see what you need to replace and work on. When it's ready to close up, then cut, fit, and butt weld in some patch panels. Most of all the other areas, you can make your own patch pieces. Just takes a lot of time.

If you could buy, make or borrow a rotisary to sping the body on, you would be way more productive.
Click to expand...

I didn't notice any patches, but I chalk that up to my great powers of observation (NOT). If anything was done it was pre 1950 when my father-in-law got the car. He never did any body work and its been in a barn in Etna OH since 1968 till 2007 when we brought it here to VA. He did tell me that one of the rear fenders wasn't the right year and has been modified to fit. But I haven't scraped off the years of undercoating to tell which one. Also with his alzheimers its kind of difficult to ask questions and history and have gotten multiple answers for the same questions at times. Its Hell on everybody.

I can see the advantages of having the ability to roll it over to work on it. I may not be able to find/build a rotisary but could probably get each side up one at a time on a workable angle to be more productive than standing on my head. When I took the body off I didn't spend much time inspecting the underside and need to get up under it to do a better inspection. I used my lift (added 9K Bend Pak when I built shop, got a bad back) and rope to get it off the frame and was more interested in getting it on the casters than looking it over.

The holes in the quarter panels are in bolt locations so once I get them patched i'll have to work on that alignment.

The more I read and get input is if I have enough metal in the subrails to patch instead of replacing then that is the preferred method because of the quality of replacements and the work required to make them fit properly and keep all alignment.

Certainly makes sense.
 
Lets consider this from another angle....

How good does it need to be to satisfy you??​

A large percentage of the cars we restore today at my shop are actually cars that were "restored" back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Although most agree they were poorly done when compared by today's standards, they were done with the time, talents, and financial resources the owner had at that time. Most of these cars served their purpose for a time. Maybe that time was five years, --or ten years, or whatever but it lasted for at least awhile.

So this brings us to your project Banjoman, how long does it need to last, ...and how good does it need to be? Is it possible with your limited funds and unlearned skils that you could be happy using some paint stripper to remove the paint, then apply filler over the rusted areas and dents followed by getting a budget $400 paint job from one of the Earl Shieb type shops? Maybe this lets you spend $1,000.00 and some of your time and it buys you 5+/- years of enjoyment with the car.

I realize this sounds strange coming from a perfectionist who advocates doing something correctly however I am getting a vibe that you (like many others) may be getting overwhelmed with all the tasks that are in front of you and at some point out of frustration it may be tempting to push the project aside forever. Many before you have come to this very same realization and their projects became basketcases. Maybe you and others can comment on their feelings regarding this.

.
 
I'm sitting here drinking coffee and thinking I wish my 29 standard coupe was in that nice of condition when i started. a little patch here and there and a lot of hours and you will have a nice little coupe.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Lets consider this from another angle....

How good does it need to be to satisfy you??​

A large percentage of the cars we restore today at my shop are actually cars that were "restored" back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Although most agree they were poorly done when compared by today's standards, they were done with the time, talents, and financial resources the owner had at that time. Most of these cars served their purpose for a time. Maybe that time was five years, --or ten years, or whatever but it lasted for at least awhile.

So this brings us to your project Banjoman, how long does it need to last, ...and how good does it need to be? Is it possible with your limited funds and unlearned skils that you could be happy using some paint stripper to remove the paint, then apply filler over the rusted areas and dents followed by getting a budget $400 paint job from one of the Earl Shieb type shops? Maybe this lets you spend $1,000.00 and some of your time and it buys you 5+/- years of enjoyment with the car.

I realize this sounds strange coming from a perfectionist who advocates doing something correctly however I am getting a vibe that you (like many others) may be getting overwhelmed with all the tasks that are in front of you and at some point out of frustration it may be tempting to push the project aside forever. Many before you have come to this very same realization and their projects became basketcases. Maybe you and others can comment on their feelings regarding this.

.
Click to expand...

Am I overwhelmed with the amount of work thats required to put this car back on the road.

YOU BET..

Do I want to take a 'half assed' approach to rebuilding it?

NO, I've been contracted to work in and around the <name your inept place here> for many years. I Certainly KNOW what 'half-assed' is and I don't want to take that approach with this car.

But I have to be a realist on this. I'd like nothing more than to have this car completed and done properly and pay to get done the things that I can't or don't have time to do. But that isn't an option. Competent work is costly and I just don't have it.

My main drive and goal for this automobile was the journey of putting it back on the road and to be able to give an 82 year old man and his Daughter, my wife the enjoyment of taking him for a ride in his car. I reluctantly took on this challenge at first but it has grown on me and I want to see it through and for us to be able to enjoy it for as long as possible and not want to throw it back together just to be able to drive him up the street and then pull it apart to redo things.

I'm up against "Father Time', Alzheimers disease, and the almighty dollar. All work against me in meeting this challenge. I get less than 8 hours a week, work on this vehicle and I guess in coming here I'm trying to learn what ways to best tackle problems from others who have done it, thus saving me aggravation and time. I feel bad that I take a lot from here and never have anything to give.
 
Last edited:
I sure wish my 29 special coupe had been in that shape when I got it. At that time (1979) there weren't many body parts available and there are lots now. I had to weld subrail repair sections to the originals to make the length and now you can put in full length rails. Had to buy most of the stuff from Ricks in those days but it came out good and is still holding up well 30 years later. That was my first A and still have it. Be sure you keep it mounted on a wooden platform to keep the mounts and doors in alignment while doing the welding.
 
Banjoman,

Take your time and go for it, there is plenty of info on the web to suggest best approuches. The Ford Barn is an excellent resource with folks who are willing to share info and experiences real time.

Good luck,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top