1953f100 fuel injection
- Thread starter rmax1953
- Start date
Bored&Stroked
Well-known member
There is no reason that a properly designed EFI system wouldn't work really well in a flathead. The key is having the correct injector sizes and technology to start with . . . and an overall system design that optimizes what EFI can/should be all about. It really should be an optimal solution to fuel and spark . . .
I'm currently designing a high-horsepower setup for a blown Hemi 392 - including converting a hat injector over to EFI. Lots of details, lots of expense due to what I'm working to accomplish.
I've thought about a custom EFI for a flathead and here are some thoughts/ideas.
1) MPI: I'd go for true multi-port fuel injection - with an injector in every runner. This can give us the ability to "tune per cylinder".
2) Sequential Port Injection: I'd go with a CAM sync setup - such that I can run true sequential (timed) fuel injection. This gives me the ability to tune/time the injector pulse to match a certain intake valve location - all based on the cam position.
3) New Style Injectors: I'd look into using the best modern injectors - like the Siemens DEKA 4 or the Bosch EV-14 style. They atomize fuel a LOT better than the older EV-1 style of injectors (which a ton of people still sell).
4) I would also run COP or CNP (coil on plug - coil near plug) - and ditch the distributor completely. My preference would probably be CNP - as I'd find a way to "hide" the coils as much as possible. Having complete timing control - based on true engine conditions (rpm, load, vacuum, coolant temperature, boost, etc) - is really something that good EFI ECUs provide - so why not get rid of all the moving parts. Is this a 'cheap' way to go . . . not if you're comparing price only to a 21A crab distributor . . . but if you're pondering a high-energy magneto, MSD box, etc - then it starts to make sense. The Holley ECU I mention below does all this stuff (and more) - and obviously so do other systems.
5) I'd probably use a Holley HP ECU - as their software is really excellent, it's automatic learning capabilities really work well and it can handle additional sensors for data collection, has data collecting logs and the ability to playback the logs over the actual fuel tables, etc.. Just a really nice product, well engineered, great software, good technical support, good user forums, etc..
6) Holley Dominator - Exceptional and Expensive: This is their top-end ECU - does everything imaginable (and more). There are many additional features over the HP. One thing I like is the support for dual O2 sensors (and learning modes that can average between the readings). Also, you can store multiple tunes in the ECU and switch between them with an external switch. This makes it possible to have a street tune, race gas tune and an E85 tune - all in the same CPU . . . you just switch between them.
Expensive Stuff? - Yes - it is not a cheap ECU ($1100), but one rapidly learns that the whole path to EFI (to have a system as I denoted above) is expensive. But why do it if you only get 1/2 the way there? (Might as well run 97's and a crab distributor). The sensors, harnesses, injectors, everything - it costs a lot of money. BUT - I also believe that if done correctly, one would have the best possible running flathead . . . including cold-starting, fuel economy, performance . . . all of it.
==============
In the case of my 392, I really want to run a 60's Hat Injector on top of my blower . . . and you really can't run MFI on the street, so converting it over to EFI is about the only viable path. I should be done with the project in roughly 2 - 3 months - then onto an engine dyno for initial break in and EFI tuning.
Platform to Learn: The other main reason I'm doing this is to learn --> I've been in engineering, design and software my whole career - why not combine all the skills and apply them to some of my hotrod/race efforts. I'd really like to convert the FlatCad Bonneville engine over to dual turbo and EFI - we'd probably make 100 more horsepower (due to reduction of parasitic loss from the stripped roots blower).
If anybody has any questions about the above - feel free to ask . . . I'm deep into it! LOL
D
I'm currently designing a high-horsepower setup for a blown Hemi 392 - including converting a hat injector over to EFI. Lots of details, lots of expense due to what I'm working to accomplish.
I've thought about a custom EFI for a flathead and here are some thoughts/ideas.
1) MPI: I'd go for true multi-port fuel injection - with an injector in every runner. This can give us the ability to "tune per cylinder".
2) Sequential Port Injection: I'd go with a CAM sync setup - such that I can run true sequential (timed) fuel injection. This gives me the ability to tune/time the injector pulse to match a certain intake valve location - all based on the cam position.
3) New Style Injectors: I'd look into using the best modern injectors - like the Siemens DEKA 4 or the Bosch EV-14 style. They atomize fuel a LOT better than the older EV-1 style of injectors (which a ton of people still sell).
4) I would also run COP or CNP (coil on plug - coil near plug) - and ditch the distributor completely. My preference would probably be CNP - as I'd find a way to "hide" the coils as much as possible. Having complete timing control - based on true engine conditions (rpm, load, vacuum, coolant temperature, boost, etc) - is really something that good EFI ECUs provide - so why not get rid of all the moving parts. Is this a 'cheap' way to go . . . not if you're comparing price only to a 21A crab distributor . . . but if you're pondering a high-energy magneto, MSD box, etc - then it starts to make sense. The Holley ECU I mention below does all this stuff (and more) - and obviously so do other systems.
5) I'd probably use a Holley HP ECU - as their software is really excellent, it's automatic learning capabilities really work well and it can handle additional sensors for data collection, has data collecting logs and the ability to playback the logs over the actual fuel tables, etc.. Just a really nice product, well engineered, great software, good technical support, good user forums, etc..
6) Holley Dominator - Exceptional and Expensive: This is their top-end ECU - does everything imaginable (and more). There are many additional features over the HP. One thing I like is the support for dual O2 sensors (and learning modes that can average between the readings). Also, you can store multiple tunes in the ECU and switch between them with an external switch. This makes it possible to have a street tune, race gas tune and an E85 tune - all in the same CPU . . . you just switch between them.
Expensive Stuff? - Yes - it is not a cheap ECU ($1100), but one rapidly learns that the whole path to EFI (to have a system as I denoted above) is expensive. But why do it if you only get 1/2 the way there? (Might as well run 97's and a crab distributor). The sensors, harnesses, injectors, everything - it costs a lot of money. BUT - I also believe that if done correctly, one would have the best possible running flathead . . . including cold-starting, fuel economy, performance . . . all of it.
==============
In the case of my 392, I really want to run a 60's Hat Injector on top of my blower . . . and you really can't run MFI on the street, so converting it over to EFI is about the only viable path. I should be done with the project in roughly 2 - 3 months - then onto an engine dyno for initial break in and EFI tuning.
Platform to Learn: The other main reason I'm doing this is to learn --> I've been in engineering, design and software my whole career - why not combine all the skills and apply them to some of my hotrod/race efforts. I'd really like to convert the FlatCad Bonneville engine over to dual turbo and EFI - we'd probably make 100 more horsepower (due to reduction of parasitic loss from the stripped roots blower).
If anybody has any questions about the above - feel free to ask . . . I'm deep into it! LOL
D
Last edited:
Ol' Ron
Well-known member
B&S is right in his efforts at building the perfect system. I chose the Multi port because I get a dry intake and inexpensive computer. Also having an unlimited selection of injectors in the scrap yard, i'll stick with the 302 injectors as the 280 isn't that far off. The biggest challenge,is: actually programming the fuel and ignition curves. In my case, I'm looking for economy most of all. However, the Vacuum input to the computer should allow for power as well. The complete system can be made for well under a grand, providing you can do allot of the work yourself. I hope i can do thias this summer, but the roadster project is at the top of the list along with it's engine.
Bored&Stroked
Well-known member
They made this injector with different size air blades - what size are yours? Mine has 2 3/8" - which is one of the reasons that I wanted to use it (other than they're sort of unique and rare). With just using one side of the injector, the flow at 1.5 HG is roughly 2050 to 2200 cfm . . . which should be more than enough on the street. I've pondered whether or not to setup the injector with a 'progressive linkage' to bring the other side in - sort of like a mechanical 4 barrel. BUT, I seriously don't believe I'll need the air anyway. You surely won't need it on an Ardun.
Also, I have not yet decided whether or not I want to attempt to hide 8 injectors on the one side (in a plate - sort of like Hilborn does) - it is a tight area, but if I use EV14 injectors, I might just get 2 per hole . . . as I need 8. Then I'd use the original 1/4" MFI nozzle ports for air-bleed lines for the IAC. This keeps the injector looking original - but still might get me the 8 injectors I need. We will see! LOL
flatrod
Senior Member
They made this injector with different size air blades - what size are yours? Mine has 2 3/8" - which is one of the reasons that I wanted to use it (other than they're sort of unique and rare). With just using one side of the injector, the flow at 1.5 HG is roughly 2050 to 2200 cfm . . . which should be more than enough on the street. I've pondered whether or not to setup the injector with a 'progressive linkage' to bring the other side in - sort of like a mechanical 4 barrel. BUT, I seriously don't believe I'll need the air anyway. You surely won't need it on an Ardun.
Mine has 2.300 throttle blades. I know I can't use it all that's why I am cutting it down to the center 4 holes, and then restricting that. As for EFI I'm thinking about how I will do it and still have it look more MFI.
Ross F-1
Well-known member
I am pretty sure it was Vergil, here and on the HAMB. He disguised the injectors inside 97 bodies. He is an amazing fabricator, haven't seen him around lately?
Ross, I may be the guy you're thinking of when mentioning 268" engine in a '32 coupe, but I never ran a quarter mile in the twelves, best time was 13.3 something seconds. My injection system is in your face purpose built while Vergil's is cleverly hidden preserving a traditional carbureted look.
Flat32
Flat32
41Joe
Senior Member
This would be an awesome setup if it wasn't so stinkin' expensive:
http://hilborninjection.com/product/ford-flathead-electronic-fuel-injector/
http://hilborninjection.com/product/ford-flathead-electronic-fuel-injector/
IGRocker
New member
The reason may be that they were recently released. They were announced ~2 months ago if I remember correctly!
tubman
Well-known member
"Flat32"- Sorry I got your "handle" wrong; I knew it was something "Flat" or "Flat" something. Maybe you aren't in the 12's yet, but I seem to remember you had a plan to get there or close, anyway. What have you been up to lately? As above, I always looked forward to your posts.
