1940 Brake Bleeding

[19Fordy]

Mike42:

Here is the correct order for bleeding drum brakes starting with the wheel farthest from the master cylinder and then bleeding each of the other wheels in decreasing distance order from the master cylinder.

1.Right Rear 2. Left Rear 3. Right Front 4. Left Front

Bleeding Process
Begin at the wheel furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.) While the actual sequence is not critical to the bleed performance it is easy to remember the sequence as the farthest to the closest. This will also allow the system to be bled in such a way as to minimize the amount of potential cross-contamination between the new and old fluid.

 

[bobH]

Mike42:

Here is the correct order for bleeding drum brakes starting with the wheel farthest from the master cylinder and then bleeding each of the other wheels in decreasing distance order from the master cylinder.

1.Right Rear 2. Left Rear 3. Right Front 4. Left Front

Bleeding Process
Begin at the wheel furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.) While the actual sequence is not critical to the bleed performance it is easy to remember the sequence as the farthest to the closest. This will also allow the system to be bled in such a way as to minimize the amount of potential cross-contamination between the new and old fluid.

We would never be able to agree. Farthest, nearest, whatever, I've NEVER been able to understand what difference it makes. 'Course, I'm new to this game. I only have about 65 years into it so far. Referring to my post #33, and starting with a completely open, clean, 'no-fluid-in-it' system, and with all the bleeder screws OUT, here's all I did... Bled the M/C (It was fresh and empty, too.) 2. Gave couple pumps to m/c, and see where fluid comes out. It came out of RF. 3. Put bleeder back in RF, loose, gave it one more pump, close RF bleeder. (No helper, working alone.) 4. Repeat step 2. Fluid came out RR. 5. Repeat step 3. 6. Repeat step 2 & 3 (LR). 7. Repeat again (LF). 8. DONE. I've got a firm pedal. And, what the heck if I missed a little air. It's going to work it's way out, anyway.
'Course, I have other ways of doing it, too. When I'm working on modern cars, and simply flushing the system, I use a vacuum pump system, working through a glass jar. That way I'm able to see when the contaminated fluid ends, and fresh fluid starts. For this scenario, I finish with a couple of aggressive pumps on the pedal, in attempt to flush whatever wheel cylinder I'm working on.
And, for really difficult systems, and only once have I done this, I have pumped the fluid backwards. An aircraft mechanic taught me this, many years ago.
And, if I happen to have a helper, I've done the 'hold the pedal down, let me pop the bleeder, close it'.
Worse situation I've run into, is 'home-builts', where the fabricator routed a line from a high-mounted m/c, down to the frame, then, somewhere along the plumbing path, the line was routed higher (usually to go over something). This creates a place for air to collect, and a spongy pedal. Air won't work it's way out of one of these 'trapped' high spots. I have a friend with a Bonneville Studebaker, with the brakes plumbed this way. And, he is always fighting a spongy pedal. He can bleed, and bleed, and get a firm pedal one day. Next morning, it's spongy.
Obviously, lengthy, windy opinion.

 

[19Fordy]

Anyone have the Ford Training manual telling exactly how the Ford Lockheed Style brakes were to be bled, including the wheel sequence?

 

[JSeery]

Worse situation I've run into, is 'home-builts', where the fabricator routed a line from a high-mounted m/c, down to the frame, then, somewhere along the plumbing path, the line was routed higher (usually to go over something). This creates a place for air to collect, and a spongy pedal. Air won't work it's way out of one of these 'trapped' high spots. I have a friend with a Bonneville Studebaker, with the brakes plumbed this way. And, he is always fighting a spongy pedal. He can bleed, and bleed, and get a firm pedal one day. Next morning, it's spongy.

It is a fairly common practice to place several loops into the brake lines near the master cylinder to reduce stress on them. I add them on all of my installs. The way I bleed brakes (which I thought was the way everyone did it until this thread, LOL), this doesn't present the slightest problem.

 

[bobH]

In response to post 64...
Sorry, I don't have a training manual. I have two manuals that are identified as published by Ford Motor Company, one from 1942, and one from 1948. Neither exactly address your question, but rather, use words like "repeat at the other three wheels". (not an exact quote)

edit... in an effort to address the question in post 64, I've looked at more manuals. I have found several manuals that specify 'sequence'. Just one example is the 1950 Motor's Manual. It says "Start at the wheel cylinder to which the brake fluid travels the greatest distance from the master cylinder (right rear wheel)." Further on it says "repeat the process on the other wheels in turn, always moving to the wheel which is the greatest distance from the master cylinder of those remaining to be bled."
(... a 'windy' way of agreeing with post 62.)

 

[mike42]

Guys...going to be in the 60's this coming weekend up here in Northern Michigan so I'll have the chance to get at this again.

Fordy I ran a copy of your write up and will start sometime later this week.

Thx all....Mike

 

[mike42]

Took some time to jack up the right rear wheel and hooked up the bleeder and all of a sudden the rear wheel cylinder started shooting fluid all over the place !! Glad I ordered new rear cylinders. Weather is nice so I thought I'd take the chance. All I can surmise is that the new master put out more pressure than the old one and that was a weak point.

I bought one of those rear hub removal tools and will try to take off the drum another day.

Sure a lot of drama related to all this !! Geez....

Thx...Mike

 

[30aadoodlebug]

I had this issue when i replaced all the cylinders and the master in my 48 plymouth special deluxe. The original master always had a 2 pump pedal once I did the cylinders and new shoes all around. The new master was a three pump pedal. Drivable, but a little scary.

The fix? Jack up the car and adjust the brakes with the adjusting cam so they just spin by hand with tension. Bleed the brakes, and redjust a slight turn. I have a one pump pedal now, and after 5 miles of driving the brakes didnt catch anymore.

 

[19Fordy]

This thread should get a special "Longest Running Question" award. But, that's fine if it helps solve the problems.

 

[V8COOPMAN]

All I can surmise is that the new master put out more pressure than the old one and that was a weak point.
Thx...Mike

The MC does not "create" pressure. Your foot, the length of the lever, and MC's bore diameter is what creates pressure! You DID have the drum MOUNTED on the axle when this occurred, right? DD

 

[mike42]

Fordy .....this has really been a learning curve for me. I’m 78 years old and have been in the automotive business since I was 21, but only did one brake job ! I drag raced with Ford in early 60’s but it was always about engine and trans stuff. I love this stuff !

Coop .....yes drum was still on and the leakage poured out the bottom of drum and backing plate. New rear cylinder arrived yesterday and will try to install with new shoes in next few days if weather holds up.

Thx......Mike

 

[JSeery]

Fordy .....this has really been a learning curve for me. I’m 78 years old and have been in the automotive business since I was 21, but only did one brake job ! I drag raced with Ford in early 60’s but it was always about engine and trans stuff. I love this stuff !

Coop .....yes drum was still on and the leakage poured out the bottom of drum and backing plate. New rear cylinder arrived yesterday and will try to install with new shoes in next few days if weather holds up.

Thx......Mike

The bad/junk wheel cylinder was most likely your problem all along.

 

[mike42]

I used that special tool to pop off the drum from axle and yes it was a pretty good "POP" !! I thought at first I broke something. All is fine there, but the drum will only come off about a 1/2" and is stuck. Is there anything special I can do to bring it home. Brake Drum Puller maybe ? If so who would sell them. I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !

Seery I'm sure it was.

Thx...Mike

 

[19Fordy]

Mike, I admire and respect your tenacity and your love of the hobby. To remove the "popped" drum turn the top adjusters so shoes are all the way "in". Also turn the bottom adjusters so shoes retract.

Make sure emergency brake is released all the way. Also, "whack" the sides of the drum with a lead or brass hammer to "shake the shoes" and loosen the drum. Some folks try to use a long screwdriver as a lever to pry off the drum side or side a little at a time. Not sure this is the best idea, though.
Hang in there. You will prevail.

 

[JSeery]

Once it pops, they are loose. It is the shoes that are hanging up now, and there may be a lip worn on the edge of the drum that doesn't help.

"I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !"

Consider it a hands on training course, 4 year collage in some cases!

 

[mike42]

Fordy and Seery thx. I'll try this. I also am looking for a drum puller online to try that too. I sure hope I don't turn 80 before I get this all done !!!

Thx again....Mike

 

[19Fordy]

Mike the best hub puller is the KRW style that Winfield Tool Works made. Perhaps there is a Fordbarner in MI that will let you borrow theirs. Winfield doesn't make them anymore. Wish you lived closer, you could use mine. Whatever you do, do not use the old style universal hub puller with the 3 legs.

 

[JSeery]

I used that special tool to pop off the drum from axle and yes it was a pretty good "POP" !! I thought at first I broke something. All is fine there, but the drum will only come off about a 1/2" and is stuck. Is there anything special I can do to bring it home. Brake Drum Puller maybe ? If so who would sell them. I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !

Seery I'm sure it was.

Thx...Mike

"Fordy and Seery thx. I'll try this. I also am looking for a drum puller online to try that too"

Ok, now I'm confused, you used a drum puller and it worked, but now you're looking for a drum puller??? Once the drum "pops" loose, that is it for the puller, after that it is a question of getting the drum off of the brake shoes. This can sometimes be a chore, but there is no puller involved.

Did you not like the puller you used?

 

[19Fordy]

Mr. Seery: I was thinking the same thing. Once a drum is "pulled" there's no such thing as a second puller.

MIKE: If possible, post photos of what you are dealing with.

 

[mike42]

Fordy and Seery.....BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once I turned in the brake adjustments it started to move. I kept tapping the drum and guess what....the damn thing fell off !!!!

NOW....you would not believe the mess of fluid and sludge and crap that is in there. I have a big clean up job before I even think of replacing the shows and cylinder. It is such a damn mess

I think these are the original brake shoes.

Okay...I'm leaving you guys alone for awhile. I have a big clean up to do.

Thx again for everything.....Mike