1932 Ford 3W Door Alignment/shim questions...

K

kiphartzell

Junior Member
I am trying to get my 1932 3W doors better aligned at the latch & dovetails. I have installed new .3125 case hardened door hinge pins and the B pillars are original, straight, and very solid. No play what so ever when trying to move the door up and down at the latch end. Everything looks good at the hinge side, body and door face match well.

With that said, I know the size and weight of the door make the 3W alignment somewhat problematic, but I would like to improve on what I have so far....

Both doors, when making contact with the A-pillar, hit the female dovetails about 1/4-3/8" low. Basically, the male dovetails hit squarely in the middle of the lower lead guide (photos attached). I can lift the doors and the doors will shut, but with no longer having any play in the hinges, I am concerned that this will put unwanted stress on the hinges/B-Pillar.

I believe that I now need to shim the body at the B-pillar to correct the door alignment. I have Wescott's doc on general body shimming, but looking for any tricks/approaches to take. Also, this is a full fender coupe and the rear fenders are already installed which leads me to believe that raising the b-pillars to correct the doors will throw things off with my rear fenders?!? How should I start the shim process? It also looks like the cowl may be a little high since I have some extra space at the lower front hood side panels. I have some 1/8" shim plates and I was going to add a couple to each of the body bolts by the B-Pillar and work from there, but I am open to other approaches. Also, I assume I need to remove the rear fenders first?!? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

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Can you tell me where you got the 0.31 hinge pins? The only ones I can find are at Macs and are too big at 0.34.
 
I originally purchased some Mac's oversized pins, but also thought .340 was excessive, yet .280 wasn't going to fix my problems. I found the 3.12 at Custom Classics & Rods (http://www.ccrod.com/pdfs/page7.pdf). Listed as 49-51 Ford pins. They worked great and even have oiling channels. They were longer then needed so I just cut them down to the size I needed before pressing them in. For the 1932 3W, I had to sand down part of the knurls on the top pins since the ears are thinner than the lower hinge ears. I also drilled small oiling holes in all the hinges (I think the top hinges already had a hole, but the rest didn't) to take advantage of the oil channels on the new pins. After drilling and reaming to the new size and pressing them in, these hinges are now tight and smooth.
 
Sounds like you need offset male dovetails.
 

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I know this is a restoration site but when I built my 3 window I installed new wood and installed a rod with a turnbuckle from a upper hinge bolt down to the floor/back body mounting bolt area. I did this on both sides just to keep tension on the door. I didn't have any alignment problems but added this as insurance. If it ever needs adjustment I can just pop off a trunk upholstery panel and adjust the rod. A friend of mine has this on his 3 window and after many 1000s of miles has never had a door alignment problem.
 
Interesting... never heard of offset dovetails. Though these would not be the answer since the door itself is low at the front and needs to be lifted so it properly aligns when shut. The current dovetails lift the door into place (albeit, not what I desire since it has to put stress on the hinges and B-pillar -- this was "less" of an issue when I had a lot of play in the hinges) Added one more picture... Again, I believe shims are the answer. Anyone care to confirm the best way to shim for this issue? Thanks.
 

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Hi Krylon, Would you have any pictures of this? This would be something I would consider to help fix this issue. The doors are so long and heavy that the extra support at the top of the B-pillar makes sense. You said rod. Is this threaded rod? How did you attached to b-pillar and lower back floor? Would cable also work? Thanks.
 
BTW, similarly I have seen where some people add an internal steel support structure in the door itself (can only be done if a door is being re-skinned) to help with this general issue.
 
I have no experience with this model but as a general rule a block of wood in between the lower hinge and putting some pressure on the door can sometimes bend the hinge enough to raise the front of the door.
 
I did not use cable as I thought it might stretch over time. I said rod but actually used 1/4 X 1 flat bar because it was easier to attach to the hinge bolt. I used 3/8 turn buckles with a jam nut to keep them from backing off. Back in the trunk area I welded the turn buckle in between the straps and continued down to the floor where I welded the lower end of the strap the the floor. I just put tension on the strap by tightening the turn buckle after the door fits. I made sure the door fit without the latch. This is not a cure all for an ill fitting door. I am using it a method of keeping the door in position over the long haul and as a way of adjusting the door at a later date should it ever sag. You would be amazed a how much the front of the door moves with a minor adjustment on the turn buckle. I also do the turn buckle deal on all the deuce roadsters I build as a method of keeping the rear quarter stiff every time you close the door.
 
There are two ways to move the doors.

First is to bend the hinges. By opening the gap on the lower hinge and closing the gap on the upper you cause the door to rise at the front (or opening the gap on the lower and on the middle a bit). Note this will affect the gap of the door to the "B" pillar. We tend to omit this from our instructions as our door hinges are pre tuned.

Second is the shimming process. Shimming affects everything... the hood to radiator and cowl gaps, door fit, and body to fender fit.

Feel free to call me, I will be happy to spend a few minutes on the phone to help you out. 503-658-3183.
 
Karl, Thanks for the offer to explain it better. Since the hinges are cast and riveted to the door along with the B-pillar gap looking pretty good, I am going to try shimming the body and see what happens before giving you a call.

The hood to radiator could also be improved which leads me to believe the cowl is too high (based on the explanation in your doc). Since there are no shims on the cowl, I believe raising the B-pillars will help to, in essence, lower the cowl too. I may need to pull the back down too (though this may mess with my rumble lid alignment) which should also have a positive effect on the B-pillar & doors. Side to side, things seem to be level so I'll shim both sides equally and hopefully only move things front to back, not side to side.
 
if you havent already[ bug] things up .your problem is that the top of the cowl has moved back which has let the doors sag .You say that the door gap to the cowl is even ,if so don"t try messing with the door hinge adjusting. if you could put a jack from the rear bottom corner of the door opening to the top hinge area of the cowl and slowly push the cowl ahead [at the top ] you would correct your fit ,but it would not last .the two front mounts under the cowl are weak .adding a steel plate to the front cowl mount under the bolt head and tightening up the bolt will help pull the cowl ahead at the top , maybe adding a shim under the #2 mount will also tip the cowl . I suspect there is rust in the lower cowl mounts .You could also add a turn buckel from the frame down by the rad up to the cowl tighten it and watch the the doors start to fit. All for Now Johnny
 
Johnny, I didn't quite follow what you are saying about the cowl. The 1932 3W has suicide doors so it would be the B-billar that would need adjusting. I am thinking a shim under the B pillar to start. Also, I currently have a shim under the rear most body mount points to better align the rumble lid, but these may need to be change to see if this also helps to tilt the top of the B-pillar back a little. It wouldn't take much to adjust the door a 1/4" at the leading lower edge. I will also plan to add some turnbuckles once the doors fit nicely to keep everything in place. Thanks.
 
Sorry for the wrong information I never thought of the car having suicide doors My experence thinks it is very hard to just lift the b area without lifting the complete side of the body If you think of the rear side of the body as one similar to a sheet of plywood the complete rear of the body would have to be lifted to keep the gaps even. But might you consider lowering the cowl ,that would be easier.Johnny.
 
No Problem Johnny. BTW, other then the frame webbing, the cowl sits directly on the frame rail so it would be difficult to lower it any more. Since the door is 42" long, the B-pillar doesn't have to change much to move a 1/4" at the leading edge. Anyway, this is shaping up to a good project for this weekend to see what a few strategically placed shims will do. Thanks again.
 
So after a discussion with another helpful 3W owner, some questions arose whether 1932 Fords (and in particular 3Ws) used any rubber frame pads and not just webbing the whole length of the frame? As described to me; "Henry used 1/4" thick (approx 2" by 2") heavy rubber shims. One goes between the body and frame at the bolt (one on each side of course) which is just before the rear end hump and the other one goes at the last body bolt (just before the gas tank). Also, you should have 1/8" thick rubber shims under each firewall bolt hole (4 altogether). Note that the whole rear of the body "floats" on those rear 1/4" rubber shims. I do not believe the rear of the body touches the frame at all from the beginning of the hump rearward. I believe the factory 2" wide body to frame webbing "stops" where the rubber shim is--right before the hump"

David? Anyone else can provide some clarification? Thanks.
 
I concur with this description. From my limited experience, there are 1/8" rubber shims under each firewall bolt hole, on top of the webbing. May not be on all cars.
Here's a photo of the original firewall feet shims in place on an original car.
 

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