1929 Model A "AF" series, are the serial loc. different?

[poboyross]

I originally posted this over on the JJ, but someone made the good point that it might fare better over here.

I know that Ford set aside the "omitted engine No.'s" for these cars, and that the stamps sometimes varied in location from the US models, but were they in the same position on the frames (under the forward body mount on the US driver side of the frame) ? Since these were RH drive cars (some of which the rural US postal carriers used) does that mean they stamped on the opposite side on the frames in the UK?

 

[Bick in New Zealand]

Here is the frame stamping on my September 1931 Victoria, that was originally assembled at the Buenos Aires Argentina Ford Plant. As can be seen from the photo the Vin number is in the same location as its LHD counterpart, but the lettering style itself is different.

 

[poboyross]

Here is the frame stamping on my September 1931 Victoria, that was originally assembled at the Buenos Aires Argentina Ford Plant. As can be seen from the photo the Vin number is in the same location as its LHD counterpart, but the lettering style itself is different.

Now that is INTERESTING!!! I know that they had a standard stamp set here in the US, but I never even considered that they would have used something different overseas. I would have figured they shipped stamping sets all over the place. Thanks for the post!

 

[Roadster62]

Glad you took my advice poboyross and posted over here. Bick thanks for the VIN number photo, the numbers look "European" to me I like the look of the 5's and 3's. Bob

 

[Bruce Lancaster]

Well...an Argentine car would have been USA made. Of course the frame number was stamped at a different time than the engine number put on at the Rouge...so questions arise on WHEN. My uneducated guess is that if only small numbers of cars went to Argentina, they would have gone as kits already designated as one car per kit, probably numbered in New Jersey or wherever they came from then.
If Argentine assembly was fairly big, though, would they have gotten engines by the score and stacks of unnumbered frames by the score to be stamped as cars were made up??? That would account for a certain amount of local improv on the stamps.
And of course some USA AF cars were sold right here...according to rumor a fair number were sold to rural mail people and others with a practical need for RHD...I would assume that a home market AF would be for sure stamped on a normal US line with proper stamps.

 

[poboyross]

Well...an Argentine car would have been USA made. Of course the frame number was stamped at a different time than the engine number put on at the Rouge...so questions arise on WHEN. My uneducated guess is that if only small numbers of cars went to Argentina, they would have gone as kits already designated as one car per kit, probably numbered in New Jersey or wherever they came from then.
If Argentine assembly was fairly big, though, would they have gotten engines by the score and stacks of unnumbered frames by the score to be stamped as cars were made up??? That would account for a certain amount of local improv on the stamps.
And of course some USA AF cars were sold right here...according to rumor a fair number were sold to rural mail people and others with a practical need for RHD...I would assume that a home market AF would be for sure stamped on a normal US line with proper stamps.

EXTREMELY interesting, as usual, Bruce! From the image that was posted above, it appears that some of them were stamped locally, as the letters and numbers look different.

 

[RHD]

Frames of the "Canadian" RHD A's here in New Zealand have no number. I have only ever seen 2 frame numbers in 46 years. Neither matched the engine number. Both were very 'early cars', and both Phaetons. Possibly could have been private imports at the time. Probably will never know.

 

[darrylkmc]

Were the frame numbers that you saw on the early Phaetons Canadian numbers?

 

[RHD]

Hi Darryl.
Yes, they were Canadian numbers. I did not unfortunately keep a record of the numbers, but I know they did not match the frame. Originally I expect they would have. They were somewhere around *CA25000* to *CA35000*.
The earliest Canadian number I have ever seen was *CA5360*.

 

[Brad in Germany]

I originally posted this over on the JJ, but someone made the good point that it might fare better over here.

I know that Ford set aside the "omitted engine No.'s" for these cars, and that the stamps sometimes varied in location from the US models, but were they in the same position on the frames (under the forward body mount on the US driver side of the frame) ? Since these were RH drive cars (some of which the rural US postal carriers used) does that mean they stamped on the opposite side on the frames in the UK?

poboyross,

Not all of the "omitted engine No.s" were Ford Model AF's! I know of a German made Model A that has one of the omitted numbers, *A4800923*, from 9 September 1931 and it is a left hand drive car with a normal full sized Model A engine in it. The only difference is that the block was cast at the factory in Koln-Niehl, Germany. The engine is the original engine from the car and matches the original data plate on the cowl (a German feature).

Fordially,
Brad in Germany now in Maryland

 

[Bruce Lancaster]

Sounds like arrangement for Ford England from 1931...local production but USA number blocks. I think I'm right that English production of regular A engines began in 1931...

 

[Bick in New Zealand]

Bruce you raise some interesting questions. My Victoria was one of 241 assembled at the Buenos Aires plant in 1931, out of a total production that year of 11,891. Given those numbers I would guess they had a pretty good system operating for assembly. I have read of 'Made in Germany' stamped on some frames coming from the B.A. plant. Another intersting fact is that this Victoria is body number 190-43230 one of the last 100 made and was first sold April 7 1932.

 

[Bruce Lancaster]

Interesting and almost undocumented territory! Ford had I think 2 or 3 levels of "Knockdown" cars requiring some degree of assembly, and I would assume...very dangerous, I know...that the tiny foreign operations got cars that were simply kits, one car to a package and presumably fully serialed wherever they came from...?
I would also assume that bigger plants...BA, Mexico??? probably worked more like a USA assembly plant, putting together what they wanted from heaps of parts and then serialing frames when the engine hit...??
All my blasted books are packed away...I know there are a few shots of furrin plants in the DeAngelis book.
By the way, I came home from the hospital after my birth in an export '48 Ford from Shanghai Ford. I don't think there was much left of Ford China by this point in the revolution, and from what my Father told me this was a complete car straight from Edgewater NJ requiring little more than bolting the wheels on when it reached China.

 

[Bick in New Zealand]

Imagine finding one of these today. Victoria ready for export. Photo courtesy The Restorer.

 

[Arlen]

I might be way wrong but I thought "AF" was specifically cars built in England for export. I would kind of bet since the car was built in England including the frame, that the number might have been on the right hand side. Just stamp it on the right side and let it blow the mind of the next guy who restores it in 80 years.

 

[Bruce Lancaster]

Let me set out what I think and/or remember about AR stuff. All of my British Empire/ commonwealth parts books are out of reach now, and maybe some of my assumptions are incorrect.
AF is a pretty foggy designation...
AF would be on a regular USA Model A for USA delivery use or for export if the car had RHD. I believe Canada used AF same way on their own different serial numbers.
Then in England, regular 200.5 CID Model A's built there with RHD, using blocks of USA serails, were AF's. They used imported engines unti 1931, made their own A's and B's afterwards.
Also in England they built special small-bore engined A's and B's, ALSO labeled AF, and this engine was always referred to as the AF or BF in parts book.
Then, I believe Ford England sold some cars with both engines on the continent with LHD...is this correct, and what the heck dif they label those serials??

OK...is that stuff right or close to right?? What say the people who actually live in "F"??

 

[Bick in New Zealand]

My Late 31 Buenos Airies assembled Victoria has regularly stamped engine block as per U.S. Frame stamp is as per photo above. All other parts that are associated with RHD are embossed AF- then the part number.
My Canadian, 31 coupe assembled here in NZ has Canadian serial on engine block, but most RHD parts are not embossed with AF designation.
I have a friend restoring a 1930 Deluxe phaeton ex Argentina that has a regular bore motor serial AF******

 

[ratamahata]

I saw at least almost 3 blocks with the AF prefix stamped, some with the Ford USA inscription stamped together, some with the A prefix only...
Guys, you can not imagine the number of models "A" that exist in my country.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41282

 

[Bick in New Zealand]

Just for interest here are a few AF Parts. The first shows a comparison showing the difference between a U.S. manufactured RHD part and it's Canadian couterpart. The U.S. one has part number. The others are of N.O.S. RHD steering arms.