1928/29 frame bolt orientation

[wrndln]

I have seen some posts on the orientation of some bolts that mostly attach parts to the frame. I have looked through the judging guidelines and have not seen anything on bolt orientation. Maybe I missed it. Anyway, I made a document that tries to list the orientation of most or hopefully all the bolts involved in mounting parts to the frame and some other places like the fenders and runningboards. I probably made a mistake or two in compiling the document, so if anyone sees a mistake(s), would you please point it out. I think the document is mostly correct from pictures and fine points cars I have seen. If there is another document that describes the bolt orientation, in the judging guidelines or somewhere else, please point me to its location. I am getting ready to build up the frame and would like to have the bolts installed correctly. Thanks for any help making this document correct.
Rusty Nelson

1928/29 model A bolt orientation
Inside refers to inside the frame

The rear fender to splash apron bolts - inside (head) to outside (flat washers, lock washers, nuts).

The front fender to splash apron - outside (head) to inside (flat washers, lock washers, nuts).

The rear engine support bolts - inside (head) to outside (lock washers, nuts).

The front and rear fender bracket bolts - outside (head) to inside (lock washers, nuts).

The service brake operating shaft bracket mounting bolts - head on top of frame and lock washers and nuts on the bottom of the mounting brackets.

The emergency brake mounting bolts - outside (head) to inside (lock washers, nuts).

The front fender to runningboard carriage bolts - face to front (lock washers, nuts on the fender side).

The rear fender to runningboard carriage bolts - face to front (lock washers, nuts on runningboard side).

Front bumper bracket mounting bolts - outside (head) to inside (lock washers, nuts).

Rear bumper to frame mounting bolts - heads on top and lock washers, nut on bottom.

[FONT=&quot]Rear bumper to rear body crossmember mounting bolts - heads on the top and lock washers and nuts on the bottom.[/FONT]

 

[Steve Plucker]

Rusty,

GREAT idea!

Please indicate what "nuts" take cotter keys! For instance the "Rear Engine Support". (No lockwashers used here).

The emergency brake mounting bolts - outside (head) to inside (lock washers, nuts). I take it that this is the left Hand Brake Lever? Does it not take cotter keys and no lock washers?

The service brake operating shaft bracket mounting bolts - head on top of frame and lock washers and nuts on the bottom of the mounting brackets. Are you refering to the Brake Cross Shaft Assembly A-2485? If so, I believe these bolts and nuts use a cotter key...no lockwashers here.



How about the Rear Bumper (or Fender Guard) to Rear Bumper Arm Assembly?

The emergency brake cross shaft assembly to frame?



Thanks Rusty.

I am sure there are more "bolt orientations" to be had.

Pluck

 

[Charles Reese]

nice idea!!! this would be a very helpful list of info. would suggest dropping the term 'inside/outside' to describe the bolt and just use 'head' (this would work for both hex and carriage bolts) ... i.e. in the case of the frame; 'head inside', 'head outside' 'head on top' 'head on bottom' ... in the case of running boards etc, 'head forward', 'head rearward' ... might help us easily confused folks. thanks for doing this research!!!

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

If I may chime in with my 'two pennys'. The first is in regards to the Standards, and the second is the list.

I am wondering if the ommision from the Standards is a good thing or bad thing? While this information would be nice to know, ...and there is nothing wrong with accurately replicating the first assembly, was the original intent of writing the Standards to become this 'anal' or this defining? Is the intent of the Standards & Guidelines to set a minimum level of what should be required on a restored car? For example, the authors of the book knew exactly what the frame paint was back when it was originally written however their minimum level of acceptance today is black paint and not rubbed out. Naturally if someone wants to use something more authentic in substance & appearance, this would (should) be accepted by the Judges however should it really receive any extra credit over what the Stds say is the minimum requirement? IMO, the preface of the Stds makes this clear however often times this instruction is overlooked or pushed aside in lieu of the Judge's wishes or opinions!

The 2nd part of this is, ...should this compiled list be documented or substantiated by something that proves it? For example, I have seen it written where the front bolts in the rear bumper braces have the bolt pushed up from the bottom and the nut on top so the arm could be removed without removing/lifting the body. The problem is that we have disassembled several cars that I KNOW have never had the body off and the bolt was inserted from the top and the nut was on the bottom. Naturally common sense would prevail as to which way would be the better way for it to be installed but shouldn't it be proven first that this was proper protocol and the only way workers were instructed to make the assembly? Why I suggest this is because if there really is no substantiating document on instruction, yet it is written into the Standards as such, then it becomes another "law" with no room for latitude (which I personally do not believe was the intent of the Stds.). Instead of seeing it written into the Stds., I would rather see this as separate guide like the Paint & Refinish book or the Fastener/Hardware book in which these reference guides are NOT to be used or referred to during MARC Judging.

.

 

[wrndln]

Thanks to those that have commented so far on the document I started. I will change the inside/outside to Charles' suggestion, head on top, head forward, etc. Brent's point is well taken, there probably shouldn't be an "bolt orientation" section in the judging guidelines, but I think a document that gives the generally accepted orientation would be helpful for people, like me, to install the bolts the most accepted way. BTW, pretty much all the four model A's I have are either basket cases or been fiddled with, with many parts swapped/replaced over the years, so I don't have any good references for bolt orientation. I suspect many other people's model A's were in the same situation. Brent, with the many model A's his company has restored over the years, is probably best authority on bolt orientation. B. Terry's Restorations must have a procedure for installing bolts in the many car his company has restored as I am sure they have seen many unmolested A's, unlike me. Brent, do you have an informal guideline for your employees to install the bolts? Again, thanks for any helpful comments about the document.
Rusty Nelson