160B 1931 Slant Window - Mestoration Correction

[Glenn C.]

Well once again I can't believe that we would purchase a Model A that was supposed to have been a "professional restoration".....but we did.

As a result, it is my turn to ask for advise from the many experts out there in "Model A Land".
When we purchased this particular car, we did not notice the "dovetails" and "dovetail pockets" missing from the passenger side door pillar untill some time later.
The "dovetail Pockets" were originally spot welded at the factory to the inside of the door pillar....after which a length of channel metal was also spot welded on the inside of the pillar for strength, and to support a wood strip, for affixing the upholstery.
Over time, the "dove tail pockets" have broke away from the inside of the door pillar, and have fallen down lodging in the bottom of the pillar.
I removed the seat, and upholstery strip, from the inside of the door pillar, in order to recover the original pockets, possibly through another access hole, but that was to no avail.
A flexible magnet will pick them up one at a time and bring them up to the dovetail opening, but then dovetail opening is not large enough for removal.

Therefore, in your expert opinions what is my best route......??

1. Remove the seat and upholstery strip once again. Cut the metal channel on the inside for work access, part recouvery,....and re-spotweld the pockets to the inside of the door pillar. This would entail re-painting the door pillar. Costly to say the least !!

2. Install "Vendor Supplied", dovetail pockets for the slant window cars on the outside of the door post.
(a) Paint door post color ?
(b) Leave Cadmium Plated

To install these pockets....larger openings will have to be cut in the door post for mounting, and thread inserts will need to be installed into the door post.

This car will for enjoyment and driving....not a high points competiton car !!

 

[Kevin in NJ]

Going to great lengths to properly repair this problem is important. The dovetail is was keeps the door from causing long term significant damage to the door surround. The bodies and frame can move quite a bit and locating the door with a dovetail is important.

Vendor supplied 4 screw dovetails may stick opt too far to function. Try and see if you can close the door and have enough clearance. You may need to lower the lip to gain more clearance. Keep in mind that lip is too high when compared to originals anyway!! This is done real fast on a milling machine. You also have to cut down the countersink on the 4 screw holes.

It is important to understand that the dove tail sliders must move with a moderate finger pressure. I say this because until recently the repro dovetails have shipped with too strong a spring. This will cause too much pressure on the male dove tail or even prevent the door from closing.

A&L is now shipping with the correct spring. He tried to use his own product and found it did not work. Lucky for him he remembered someone telling him the springs were too strong a couple of years earlier.


Usually the back side of the dovetail is quite usable. Contact me if you need some backs as I might be able to help. You have the problem in that they are spot welded in place. Your only saving point is the door post would not be hard to respray and be not too noticeable.

 

[bob p]

remember what some people call professional is,( they paid somebody to do it) I have seen it many times.

 

[MAP]

I'd be interested to know how you make out. I have a 160B that I am currently working on with the same problem. I'm not sure if my sockets are still in the pillar. I was thinking along the same lines of using one of the external sockets, but haven't had the time to experiment. Does Bratton's have the ones with the correct spring pressure ?

 

[Glenn C.]

Thanks Kevin for you response and insight. I will re-check this afternnon, later on, to see how much actual clearance there is. By the way.....who is A&L anyway? I have seen A&L mentioned in other postings, but I am not familiar with them.
It was also pointed out to me by one of our local club members.....that if I decide to go with the dovetail assemblies, I might have to mill back the screw countersinks to allow for enough screw insert head/face clearance.

 

[Glenn C.]

Not sure MAP on the spring pressure from any of the suppliers such as Brattons; Snyders; or Mac's. I am not sure either if Bert's have the correct springs. They are probably sold to the vendors by the same manufacturer anyway.

Don't forget......if you pockets are still intact in the pillar, it is a breeze to install the new actual dovetail slides. Just follow the instructions in the package. Use a good all temperature grease with graphite. Even remove the worn slides, grease and replace those. No big deal !

 

[Terry in KB]

I have the same problems on my '31 slant window. Passenger side also. Will try fishing for the dove tails in door pillar. Car has no interior so how difficut is it to remove the the wood strip. Seems like two screws holding wood strips in

Terry Baxter

 

[Glenn C.]

No problem in removing the wood strips, other than the possibility of the screws being rusted, and break off. Even if you are lucky enough to be able to fish the broken dovetail pockets out........question next will be; "What will I do now ?"

 

[Kevin in NJ]

A&L first on the list when you click here

Here is what I learned about dove tails.

Bert's had a guy make some up. The face plate was wonderful. The back section was just not right. The sliders were not formed correct and the springs were too stiff. When I was in need he was the only kid on the block. My solution was to use his fronts, original backs, original springs and modified NOS 1936 type dovetail inserts.

These just did not function. I am not sure how you could have them on a door and not have it rip off the wedge.

Later A&L came out with there dovetail. Much better quality and the sliders moved with too much force. You can also get good sliders.

This at the 2009 Hershey I talked to the A&L tent and the guy had tried to use their product and found out it did not work. Since then they should be shipping with a better spring. Ask before you buy.

Incidentally, A&L is a major supplier of some of the top end repro parts you see on the market.

 

[Glenn C.]

Thanks again for the info Kevin. Much appreciated !!

 

[msmaron]

who is A&L anyway? I have seen A&L mentioned in other postings, but I am not familiar with them.

A&L is probably the finest repop parts made, Al Lepore took the time to make sure the parts were good and fit like originals, many people use his parts in fine point judging, they are that good,

 

[Glenn C.]

Question for Mark......Would a person loose points for using the external mounted dovetail brackets on his vehicle, rather than going to the problem of restoring the internal mounts ?

 

[85930tudor]

i just found out that al lepore passed away on monday i think he will be missed

 

[1931 flamingo]

He passed away a few months ago.
Paul in CT

 

[msmaron]

Question for Mark......Would a person loose points for using the external mounted dovetail brackets on his vehicle, rather than going to the problem of restoring the internal mounts ?

Glen basically YES, However if you can make the parts look like originals you might ONLY get a very very small deduction. If you are looking into fine point, i would take the time to search out the correct parts, the swap season will begin after the 1st of the year and you can probably find what you are looking for, BUT didnt you say you were using the car as a driver? If so call A&L and get the GOOD Repos, you wont be sorry.
Good Luck

mark

 

[Glenn C.]

Yes...that is correct Mark that I will be using it as a driver to enjoy, but a person never knows that he might just one day enter it into the "Touring Class" at one of the Regional Meets to see how it stands up against the rest of the entrants.
Fine Point....No! Too frustrating, and not worth the disappointment.

 

[Glenn C.]

Well.....here are the results of the original query to the "Fordbarners".

Would I do it again this way? That I am not to sure about as it is very time consuming to obtain proper results an appearance. I may down the road sometime paint the dovetail brackets the door post color, even though that would not be correct.
As for now I find the finished mounted brackets to be obtrusive when you first open the door.

On installation, it is important to cut the recess for the pocket to the same configuration, and as close fitting to size as possible. In fact, due to it's actual shape, you should not be able to slide it into position, but insert it into the opening and back against the post.
The outside lip must rest against the post, before marking, and ***** punching, pre-drilling for thread inserts.

It is very important to mill some material from around the outside edge of the pocket, to obtain as much clearance as possible from the door.
It does not make a difference on which type of screw is used for fastening, you will still need to machine as much material as you can from the head of the screws also for clearance.

Neither method of repair is easy, when the vehicle is finshed.

btt