12 volt conversion 1941 coupe 1948 engine

J

joedaless

Member
Hello,
I need some help in deciding what to do with my converted 6 to 8 volt engine.
Last year I converted my 6 volt 1948 A.B. engine to 8 Volts. I find it still starts slow and today I was supposed to show the car at a big car show and it decided not to start at all.

I'd like to change it to a 12 Volt system. What does it involve and what is the average cost to change it over. The car is all stock and really showroom like.
I'd really like to show and drive this car but it seems to have this starting issue.
When it does get to a show or meet I usually take first or second place.
At this point I'm not concerned about shows I just want to be able to get in and drive this V 8 down the road.

Any and all help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Joe D'Alessio
 
Joe
Forget 8 volt, and 12 volt conversion problems.
Find the reason the car starts slow.
First check your battery connections, positive and negative.
Remove all cables, and clean them well. Pay special attention when reinstalling ground
wires that they make good connections. External lock washers are recommended here.
Make sure you have the battery grounded to the engine, the engine grounded to the frame, and to the body sheet metal. Then starting from the battery test your voltage at each connection for a voltage drop. Make sure the starter has a good ground. Also check your ignition switch for voltage drop.
If your starter is worn out the armature may be dragging on the field coil shoes.
This is all necessary whatever voltage is used.
Let me know if these suggestions cure your problem.
Bruce
 
Joe, don't think your problem is 6,8 or 12V but does sound like a grounding and or internal corrosion in battery / start cables causing hi-resistance which is causing you starting. Start by cleaning and making sure ground cables straps are good. That should help. Then check / replace if old the other battery starter cables. I think this will resolve. Changing to 12V is an easy and inexpensive process which there are kits at several sites. The kits give you new 12V light bulbs to replace all 6V and voltage reducers to protect electric motors or gauges. While there is some disagreement your 6V starter will work fine with a 12V battery ( will spin twice as fast).
 
Bruce, and Tony,
I put a charge on my battery for a full day. It still did not turn over. It is a year old 8 volt battery . This battery is the same they use on a golf cart.
This is the second new battery that I have installed in the car since it was changed over to an 8 Volt.

I have had plenty of antique cars in the last 50 years. This one I'm tearing my hair out trying to solve the problem.

I was quoted a price to change it to 12 volts of $1,500.00. He said you had to do a lot of rewiring. I'm not good at electrical stuff so I thought I'd have someone do it for me. I think the price is way off. Would any of you guys or anyone have a ballpark figure of what is should cost including labor.

I really need some help here.
Thanks for all your time,
Joe D'Alessio
Clinton, Ct 06413
 
Crakn the engine for 15 seconds with the ignition off ---then feel the wires and connections, ---places that are hot are bad connections

Some of the "store bought" battery wires are of low quality, the terminal ends are steel, also if you have 12v wires cranking will be slow

All it takes is a rusty nut,lockwasher, or too much paint ---too much paint on the firewall where the ground strasp connects, a reused lockwasher and nut---the path of electric from the stud (any thresded electric connection) is from the threads of the stud to the threads of the nut--to the side of the nut, through the faces of any washer to the face of the terminal --through the terminal to the wire (I always solder these connections when I want reliability)

My car has never won any "best of show", but I have been asked if I have a 12V system because of how fast it cranks.

A properly restored car doesn't need modifications to start and run reliably

No rewiring is needed to convert to 12v if the 6V wires are good ---6V wires are twice the size of 12v wires ----if you have 12V battery wires perhaps all you need are new battery wires ---post a picture of the battery and wires to the solenoid

i worked on golf carts for many years, while a golf cart battery will work,it isn't made for cranking a starter, (car starting battery is made to make a lot of amps for short times, golf cart battery is made for less amps for long times)
 
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If your existing 6 volt wiring is in good shape there is no need to replace it. The only wiring might be to add things like turn signals. The 12 volt wire is smaller but using the larger 6 volt wire works fine. There are wiring looms (some are even available with turn signals) for the cars that make the job easier than $1500 and simple enough that you should be able to do it yourself. If you go somewhere make sure they are used to old cars or they will just rewire the car with modern wire (which looks different).

Charlie Stephens
joedaless said:
Bruce, and Tony,
I put a charge on my battery for a full day. It still did not turn over. It is a year old 8 volt battery . This battery is the same they use on a golf cart.
This is the second new battery that I have installed in the car since it was changed over to an 8 Volt.

I have had plenty of antique cars in the last 50 years. This one I'm tearing my hair out trying to solve the problem.

I was quoted a price to change it to 12 volts of $1,500.00. He said you had to do a lot of rewiring. I'm not good at electrical stuff so I thought I'd have someone do it for me. I think the price is way off. Would any of you guys or anyone have a ballpark figure of what is should cost including labor.

I really need some help here.
Thanks for all your time,
Joe D'Alessio
Clinton, Ct 06413
Click to expand...
 
I'll be GLAD to convert your car to 12v for $1500! I strongly agree with others who recommend finding the reason you're having starting problems. I have a '46 with 12v, negative ground electrical system. It was like that when I got the car and I had to completely re-do it. IMHO, $1500 is a very high price for the conversion, if you decide to go that way.
 
Joe, your not getting to the root of the problem charging a new battery or an old isn't your problem. Even if it were a 12V with the cables you have ( I surmise ) the same issues. The problem isn't the battery or the 6 or 8 volt set-up. I like Bruce believe the problem is in the grounds, the ground connections and or the battery / starter cables having internal corrosion all causing conductivity and resistance issues causing the starter issues. Could also be the starter it self with worn brushes and armature problems, but I'd cover the ground & cable cleaning replacing.

None of this requires electrical prowess. It's unbolt and clean and replace stuff.

If you go to a 12V system do it your self. The guy quoting you $1500 wants to steel your shorts. It doesn't require a degree it electrical engineering or more experience than I suspect you probably have mechanically. Just changing some light bulbs and connecting some voltage reducing elements on connections to some gauges. Going to a negative ground is simple as well. Tons of instructions in FB threads and on the Internet. It literally took me less than an hour to convert mine to 12V. The kits are less than a $100. But again I don't think you need to change over to 12V
 
I would like to thank everyone who has helped me. I have tackled a lot of cars in my 64 yrs plus . I've always been hesitant to do electrical.

It may just be the ground on this car. I will look into that in the morning.

Again I can't thank you guys enough. I have driven my wife crazy for the last few days. Maybe I can now figure this whole thing out. If any one has anymore suggestions please send them along.

Thanks a million everyone.
Joe D
 
Joe
Just do one step at a time, The satisfaction you will feel is worth getting your hands dirty.
Bruce

Tudor Tony
I have seen internal corrosion so bad you could stretch the wire like a rubber band, but still read continuity thru it. That was fun chasing that one down.
Bruce
 
Hi joedaless, I hope you can get this cured without emptying the wallet!

My first take from reading this is it may be the battery itself. I'd consider what Kurt in NJ said in post #5 about the difference between an automotive battery and a golf cart one. That makes too much sense!

In an effort to be helpful I offer these two threads which may enlighten you or others. My dear ol' dad, henryat1140, wrote a 1, 2, 3 kind of checklist to go through the grounding system when we were getting our '36 Phaeton sorted.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56351&highlight=henryat1140

and

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120523&highlight=henryat1140
 
Joe, put a volt meter on your battery to check voltage. Next have you wife hit the starter button while you again check the voltage. Is it the same? If yes, then it's time to check for corrosion on your connections.

Yes, it's very simple to change to 12V even if you want to go with negative ground. Just jump in and do it. Don't be afraid of anything. You have lots of support at your fingertips.
 
If you get a new 6 volt battery, make sure you get one that is big enough. Most 6 Volt batteries availible through general sources are Group 1 (for old tractors, Plymouths, and Chevrolets), that can have as little as 425 CCA. You need a robust Group 2 battery with at least 700 CCA to turn a flathead over. I needed a battery once, and the only one available was a Group 1. It would not turn my '51 V8 over when it was hot. I got an 800CCA Optima that solved all of those problems. The last time I was in our local Fleet Farm, I saw they have Group 2 batteries with 725 CCA. This may be an alternative to an Optima, since I hear they have problems since they moved their battery manufacturing from Colorado to Mexico.

All of this aside, I agree with the other folks here; you have ground, connection, or cable problems. Fix them and all should be good. Get rid of that 8 Volt battery unless you like replacing bulbs and fixing your radio (if you have one).
 
Hi there, stop messing around with golf cart batteries which are designed for a slow continual release of power (deep cycle) and not good for high drain starting applications. The proof testing of a battery is to make sure it is fully charged and then load test it with a proper load tester which can load the battery with up to 500 amps. My recommendation would be a 6 volt optima battery for your car which can deliver up to 850 cold cranking amps. They are really good batteries. As others have said, fix your problem and don't try to sidestep it with a 12 volt conversion which is not needed. Regards, Kevin.
 
Just to add a little about optima batteries. There is a story going around for some time that optimas that are produced in Mexico are of doubtful quality. I would not believe this to be true. I worked for a service that has used hundreds of optima batteries over 20 years and the quality has not seemed to have changed. Yes like any battery you can have the odd faulty one. And any battery, optima included has to be looked after, including having the charging system in your car up to scratch. I don't believe an optima battery in an old car application has to be on a float charger all the time which could be detrimental. Just have it on charge once a month for a day or two is enough. I say optima are great batteries, especially the 6 volt as used in our old fords. Regards, Kevin.
 
koates said:
Just to add a little about optima batteries. There is a story going around for some time that optimas that are produced in Mexico are of doubtful quality. I would not believe this to be true. I worked for a service that has used hundreds of optima batteries over 20 years and the quality has not seemed to have changed. Yes like any battery you can have the odd faulty one. And any battery, optima included has to be looked after, including having the charging system in your car up to scratch. I don't believe an optima battery in an old car application has to be on a float charger all the time which could be detrimental. Just have it on charge once a month for a day or two is enough. I say optima are great batteries, especially the 6 volt as used in our old fords. Regards, Kevin.
Click to expand...

Just found this on www.thedieselstop.com

Optima Batteries made in mexico
Its official now. I have worked at Optima Batteries for 11 years. In 2000, Johnson controls bought Optima and immediatly began construction of a plant in mexico. We were told that our U.S. plant could not produce enough product so the plant in mexico would be to supply Europe. Slowly but surely, our product lines began being transferred to mexico. Then the week before Thanksgiving, we were told that the U.S. plant will be closed Jan.24 2009. Just thought you all would like to know.
 
To all my friends at Ford Barn.

THNAK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR WONDERFUL IMPUT.

I HAVE BEEN IN THE HOBBY SINCE I WAS 13 YEARS OLD ( 1963 ) AND TO DATE THIS IS JUST THE MOST WONDERFUL SITE OUT ON THE NET.

MY WIFE THANKS YOU TOO. I'VE DRIVEN HER NUTS ABOUT THIS.

MY HEARTFELT THANKS TO A BUNCH OF GREAT GUYS.

MY SINCERE THANKS,

JOE D'ALESSIO
CLINTON, CT 06413
 
joedaless said:
To all my friends at Ford Barn.

THNAK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR WONDERFUL IMPUT.

I HAVE BEEN IN THE HOBBY SINCE I WAS 13 YEARS OLD ( 1963 ) AND TO DATE THIS IS JUST THE MOST WONDERFUL SITE OUT ON THE NET.

MY WIFE THANKS YOU TOO. I'VE DRIVEN HER NUTS ABOUT THIS.

MY HEARTFELT THANKS TO A BUNCH OF GREAT GUYS.

MY SINCERE THANKS,

JOE D'ALESSIO
CLINTON, CT 06413
Click to expand...

So, what did you find out? Any success so far?
 
joedaless said:
Bruce, and Tony,
I put a charge on my battery for a full day. It still did not turn over. It is a year old 8 volt battery . This battery is the same they use on a golf cart.
This is the second new battery that I have installed in the car since it was changed over to an 8 Volt.

I have had plenty of antique cars in the last 50 years. This one I'm tearing my hair out trying to solve the problem.

I was quoted a price to change it to 12 volts of $1,500.00. He said you had to do a lot of rewiring. I'm not good at electrical stuff so I thought I'd have someone do it for me. I think the price is way off. Would any of you guys or anyone have a ballpark figure of what is should cost including labor.

I really need some help here.
Thanks for all your time,
Joe D'Alessio
Clinton, Ct 06413
Click to expand...

Hi Joe,

I just did a 12V conversion on my 48 Ford F1 pickup. I'm in it for about $350 and I did most of the work myself. I should say as a caveat that I replaced the wiring harness several years prior with a reproduction wire harness that's got the modern sleeved wiring under the original looking cloth wiring for safety.
I had a local shop convert my generator over to 12v, and eventually had my starter switched over too, though it wasn't totally necessary.

I switched to 12V after my 6V left me stranded at a show and I couldn't get a jump. After the winter time, the battery completely died and wouldnt take a charge, and I didn't feel like spending a fortune on another 6V battery.

A lot of people nay-say and stick up for 6 volt, but I haven't looked back.
 
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GreenMonster48 said:
Hi Joe,

I just did a 12V conversion on my 48 Ford F1 pickup. I'm in it for about $350 and I did most of the work myself. I should say as a caveat that I replaced the wiring harness several years prior with a reproduction wire harness that's got the modern sleeved wiring under the original looking cloth wiring for safety.
I had a local shop convert my generator over to 12v, and eventually had my starter switched over too, though it wasn't totally necessary.

I switched to 12V after my 6V left me stranded at a show and I couldn't get a jump. After the winter time, the battery completely died and wouldnt take a charge, and I didn't feel like spending a fortune on another 6V battery.

A lot of people nay-say and stick up for 6 volt, but I haven't looked back.
Click to expand...

You can jump a 6 volt system from a 12 volt system. Turns over like crazy. Just make sure all your lights are turned off as well as your radio. Don't ask me how I know!
 
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