Southwind & Zenith

Well I am going with Southwind because my great uncle and original owner of my A ran one in this car, as a kid I took the 5 minute no research gas furnace sounds dangerous just chuck it which I did. Now 45 years later I have a much higher opinion of my Uncle as I have followed in his footsteps seeing any change he made in the car did work. I sent to Canada for a restored Junior model ( the smallest) and installed it on the driver side in the same holes my uncle drilled 70 odd years ago. Now fuel line for heater is 28 inches long and you can't shorten or lengthen it... length is part of the calibration for fuel. So no way that comes close to reaching a Zenith. My uncle ran a downdraft carb on it another thing I took off when I was a kid and tossed after tripping over it for 20 years.
I had always assumed he wanted improved performance but he could have just wanted heat in the winter. So in its current location the gas line crosses firewall and ends just shy of float bowl what ever I do I will not be drilling into the zenith. Vacuum is another issue my wiper vacuum line is half diameter of vacuum line for heater so sent away for 1/8-27 elbow to 1/4 inch copper compression to make the vacuum line. Still thinking about using sediment bowl as fuel source in directions after you drill hole and feed pick up line in you are supposed to shellac the connection to make it air tight and fuel tight. I have taken pics of the install step by step and will post. Heater came with Service Manual fuel line kit and vacuum line kit. 245.00 including shipping. Heater is mounted above clutch pedal, directions recommend installing on passenger side if I didn't already have holes I would have followed directions. By the way all models of heater fit the same size holes mine fit perfectly in the old holes. Single wire from heater connects to the ignition switch that is cold with key off. More info as I get fuel source and hook vacuum up.
 
I have never installed one but did look into it years ago. The South wind is a very good heater that will only run when the engine has good vacuum. I have heard the old timers say that the heat would cut out if you were climbing hills. The engines vacuum draws fuel from the carburetor bowl. The heater's fuel pickup tube location on a Zenith is a problem because the float almost totally fills the bowl. One can not put a tee into the fuel line as that would flood the heater.

Pete
 
Update, it is in but not working. Igniter draws 10 amps when you turn it on for about 90 seconds then drops as heater gets to temperature and self ignites from that point on. Mine pulls 10 amps the instant key is turned without turning on heater. Started car and all manner of hard starting happened, felt like someone had turned my distributor about 30 degrees stalled and would not start again. It was running perfectly earlier in day, removed vacuum line and plugged...still would engine still would not start, fired after several trys but sounded horribly out of time and gave up quickly. Ammeter jiggles with switch on and engine cranking so primary circuit is fine. Only electrical connection for heater is one wire running from heater to cold side of ignition switch in dash. Will remove that next. Fuel for heater was coming from small container so no part of Model A fuel system was harmed or interrupted. My son was watching engine while I tried to start it and said fuel line which crossed firewall just under coil may have shorted something... I placed gas line inside clear tubing to prevent any further shorting. more later as I continue to explore. Goal today is get car running again.
 
Give it up, we don't want to see you in the headlines! (SERIOUSLY)
If they had been suitable for Model A's, South Wind could have made a fortune in sales!!!
Bill W.
 
But it gets cold in my neck of the woods and this car already had the exact same heater in it and working. I just have to figure out how.

Thank you for your concern I will be careful I love this car more than any other object I own.
 
Update opened dash removed heater connection....car started right up and ran fine. Chance of dead short in heater circuit 100%.
 
Where short is in heater
 

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If you have stock wiring you can NOT hook anything to the ignition switch
except the red wire to the coil.

Bob
 
Bob C said:
If you have stock wiring you can NOT hook anything to the ignition switch
except the red wire to the coil.

Bob
Click to expand...
Discovered that the hard way when I originally put my tach in. Fortunately Autometer warrantied the tach without asking any questions. Second time was a charm, but only after a slight wiring change.
 
hale1776 said:
But it gets cold in my neck of the woods and this car already had the exact same heater in it and working. I just have to figure out how.

Thank you for your concern I will be careful I love this car more than any other object I own.
Click to expand...

"Maybe" the previous owner used a down draft carb???
I once bought a '41 Ford Convertible, with a Southwind, fuel pick up & tube were missing. Found a pickup & tube, already mounted to a good looking carb, at the wrecking yard were I worked. Overhauled the carb, cleaned the pick up & the heater worked perfectly & even kept a convertible quite warm!
Bill W.
 
Bob C thanks for that information I will find an alternative source of power but first have to remove heater to inspect switch. I heard back from supplier who said the wire connect terminal have fiber washers which may have been damaged in shipping which could also be source of short either that or switch. Bill this car did have a downdraft on it and the heater could very well have been the reason for it. My great uncle owned the only garage in Salem Depot NH this was his car and he was a Yankee. He would be immensely proud that I kept it running and appalled at the money I spent on it.
 
Short is in that switch that I posted diagram of. Found a NOS one on eBay and its on its way.
 

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Looking forward to reading updates on your post. I mounted my southwind I the passenger side. Now have to hook it up. Have to decide power and fuel source. Sediment bowl seems logical.
 
Do not use ignition switch, home depot will have 1/8th plumbing elbows which fit wiper boss on manifold. I'm going long so I bought 5/8 rubber gas line (5.00 per foot)so copper at manifold and heater with rubber going behind engine, hit it with a map gas torch to see if it would melt...tuff stuff. Sediment bowl is where I am thinking just a matter of how I am going to seal hole...manual says shellac which might not be a bad idea. JB WELD would work but be there forever.... don't need air at bowl as vented gas cap will prevent drawing a vacuum in bowl.
 
Not sure how the heater works but if it used vacuum to pull gas from the carburetor
bowl then I don't think you could tap into the sediment bowl. With the gas tank
above the sediment bowl you would have pressure in the gas line to the heater.
 
The instructions do state that the heater should not be mounted more than twelve inches above the level of fuel in the carburetor, but nothing about below it. I would think that the sediment bowl would be above the heater by a similar distance that a carburetor might be in a more conventional set up.
 
I will have a copy on instructions for the bowl hopefully this week, They are coming in from Canada so lets see if they help
 
hale1776 said:
.....Sediment bowl! ...am I nuts is there something I haven't thought of? There usually is.
Click to expand...

DO not use the sediment bowl! The Southwind needs a fuel source that is unpressurized and open to atmosphere. With a full fuel tank (or anything above empty) the sediment bowl is under pressure. Now, since most fuel shutoff valves eventually score and drip a tiny bit, even with it shut off while parked the entire fuel bowl and line backs up with pressure, albeit at a very slow drip rate, against the fully seated carb float valve. That's just asking for a problem.

The secondary Southwind accessory bowl shown in the photo by Mark Maron above is OK, but has its own problems. That bowl has its own float and pin valve and is subject to the same leakage problems from fine particles of debris as is the carb. Add to this the "T" fittting and good old Model A vibraaaaation. You have effectively doubled the probability of a leak while parked and unattended.

I know you don't want to drill your precious Zenith, but getting your unpressurized, atmospheric vented fuel there is probably the best bet. Just my opinion, but the best solution would be to make up a steel or brass 'banjo' type fitting to replace the plug on the bottom. Run steel or brass from it to a 1/2" dia. secondary well made from a section of tubing about 3" long, from slightly lower that the banjo to slightly higher than the carb parting line. Add a bracket to slip over the air intake horn of the carb so it cannot rotate and loosen the banjo. Silver braze it all together, no threaded connection other than the banjo bolt. If you want to remove it, one bolt, replace the stock plug.

You can get both steel and brass banjo fittings in several sizes. You may have to make up your own cross-drilled bolt. Use this as a starting point to build your secondary well with all silver brazed connections. Check brake component suppliers. The carb banjos are mostly aluminum and too big, but you may find something workable there, too. Here's a few brake fittings:
65-10272.jpg

Remember, the banjo goes where the bottom threaded carb plug is, NOT on the fuel line!

OK, how and what about the 'too short' capillary tube that you mentioned as part of the fuel metering? To start, after re- arranging and re-installing many commercial reefer cap systems I can tell you this: It's pipe flow and fluid dynamics. If that capillary doesn't reach where you want you can add a larger diameter extension section, like 1/4 or 5/16 steel line. Adding 3X the cap length with an extension line 3X the cross-sectional area will reduce flow less than 2% if the flow rate is relatively slow. The thing to remember about metering capillaries is you must completely open and flare any cut ends. Just cutting it with a tube cutter will introduce restrictions.

FWIW, my dad worked in the 50's as an engineer and production manager for the maker of Southwinds, Stewart Warner Corp. on Diversey Ave. in Chicago. There was NEVER a fire from a properly installed Southwind. SW did spend a small fortune defending their reputation in a lawsuit from a dealer that burned up a vehicle. Investigation and discovery found they did not follow the installation instructions.
 
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Mark I have same manual from Larry in Canada there is nothing in it specific to any updraft carburetor or the Model A in general.
I do not think the level of gas in tank will pressurize pick-up tube to heater. I am waiting on new switch as mine is shorted out. Should have it next week. The question of using the float bowl as a fuel source will be solved the old fashioned way.
 
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