mshmodela
Well-known member
Interesting, I'd like to see your sources for your claim above.
Seat belts (AGAIN!)
- Thread starter 29er
- Start date
Interesting, I'd like to see your sources for your claim above.
Lona
Well-known member
Mike,
For info, google "three point retractable seat belts", then scroll down to "Images for three point retractable seat belts". Almost all of these many sites show retractable belts with the retractable mechanism mounted at or slightly below shoulder height OR, the retractable mechanism is mounted to the floor BUT with a shoulder height harness pivot such that in the case of an accident, the shoulder belt exerts little or no downward pressure on the body. Granted, some installation guides show the belt over the shoulder and directly down behind the seat to the floor. However, most manufacturers and racing belt installation instructions show the shoulder belt either mounted to the upper roll bar or include the shoulder height pivot point for the belt.
Think about the physics of motion in an accident. In a head-on, the car stops abruptly but the body continues to move forward until restrained by the seat or shoulder belt. The seat belt will prevent the body at the waist from moving forward. However, the upper body acts like a hinge at the seat belt restraint and will move forward rapidly until held by the shoulder belt. At this point, the body, now weighing considerably more than what it would at rest, is stopped by the retractable shoulder belt. If this belt is mounted at shoulder height, it will restrain the body with little downward force. However, if the shoulder belt is mounted to the floor directly behind the seat with no upper pivot point, the forward moving body will make the shoulder belt move downward with great force. At the least, this can cause a broken collar bone and at the worst, crush the shoulder and spine.
The above web site and others you can research point out the problem of mounting the shoulder belt directly behind the seat. Now, we model A drivers are faced with a dilemma. Let's face it....we are going to get hurt in a bad accident. I believe lap belts only are better than no belts at all. I also believe installing three point retractable belts with the shoulder belt mounted to the floor behind the seat is better than seat belts alone provided you are not in a really bad front ender. The best configuration IMO is to have three point belts with the shoulder piece mounted high as described to prevent crushing injury in a bad accident.
Each of us has to think this through and make the decision regarding seat belts that is best for us individually and for our loved ones riding with us.
Glen
For info, google "three point retractable seat belts", then scroll down to "Images for three point retractable seat belts". Almost all of these many sites show retractable belts with the retractable mechanism mounted at or slightly below shoulder height OR, the retractable mechanism is mounted to the floor BUT with a shoulder height harness pivot such that in the case of an accident, the shoulder belt exerts little or no downward pressure on the body. Granted, some installation guides show the belt over the shoulder and directly down behind the seat to the floor. However, most manufacturers and racing belt installation instructions show the shoulder belt either mounted to the upper roll bar or include the shoulder height pivot point for the belt.
Think about the physics of motion in an accident. In a head-on, the car stops abruptly but the body continues to move forward until restrained by the seat or shoulder belt. The seat belt will prevent the body at the waist from moving forward. However, the upper body acts like a hinge at the seat belt restraint and will move forward rapidly until held by the shoulder belt. At this point, the body, now weighing considerably more than what it would at rest, is stopped by the retractable shoulder belt. If this belt is mounted at shoulder height, it will restrain the body with little downward force. However, if the shoulder belt is mounted to the floor directly behind the seat with no upper pivot point, the forward moving body will make the shoulder belt move downward with great force. At the least, this can cause a broken collar bone and at the worst, crush the shoulder and spine.
The above web site and others you can research point out the problem of mounting the shoulder belt directly behind the seat. Now, we model A drivers are faced with a dilemma. Let's face it....we are going to get hurt in a bad accident. I believe lap belts only are better than no belts at all. I also believe installing three point retractable belts with the shoulder belt mounted to the floor behind the seat is better than seat belts alone provided you are not in a really bad front ender. The best configuration IMO is to have three point belts with the shoulder piece mounted high as described to prevent crushing injury in a bad accident.
Each of us has to think this through and make the decision regarding seat belts that is best for us individually and for our loved ones riding with us.
Glen
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
One good thing about mentioning "Seat Belts" (Again), is to remind us all about always trying to drive "defensively" with our Model A's.
Many of us notice when "some" modern car drivers see a Model A moving along, they tend to disrespectfully pull out right in front of us; run stop signs or caution lights, and/or impatiently pass us & make us slow down to let them get back in the driver's lane.
Always good practice to try to drive cautiously even when we have the right of way.
Saw a few weeks ago where a young girl was thrown out of her modern car upon impact & killed mainly because of no seat belts.
Thanks for posting this reminder.
Many of us notice when "some" modern car drivers see a Model A moving along, they tend to disrespectfully pull out right in front of us; run stop signs or caution lights, and/or impatiently pass us & make us slow down to let them get back in the driver's lane.
Always good practice to try to drive cautiously even when we have the right of way.
Saw a few weeks ago where a young girl was thrown out of her modern car upon impact & killed mainly because of no seat belts.
Thanks for posting this reminder.
QGolden
Well-known member
Thanks Mark. Actually I posted that comment a year ago! Amazing how these threats recirculate over time. I did find a set of very nice ones on eBay and yes they are metal, thank you.
jmeckel
Well-known member
If you think you can "brace for impact" in a head on collision your going to need to be able to bench press 4800 (yes four thousand eight hundred) pounds to stop yourself from colliding with that steering shaft and windshield. Thats given the vehicle stops in 1 foot (head on collision it can easily) from only 30 MPH and the person only weights 160 lbs... it can triple or quad that 4800 lbs only going 45, if your heavier, taller, etc. So while the lap belt will keep your legs from hitting the gastank/steering column/floor i don't know too many people who can live without lungs or head...
So the point to think about here is if you install seat belts the mounts need to be able to hold well over 5,000 to 10,000 lbs of force. The safety factor should be at least 2 or 3 times the expected load. IMO a bolt through a piece of metal any place on an A is not going to provide this, you would need to install harden backing plates of appropriate size and have them attached in such a way as to take the force.
So the point to think about here is if you install seat belts the mounts need to be able to hold well over 5,000 to 10,000 lbs of force. The safety factor should be at least 2 or 3 times the expected load. IMO a bolt through a piece of metal any place on an A is not going to provide this, you would need to install harden backing plates of appropriate size and have them attached in such a way as to take the force.
SeaSlugs
Well-known member
true to a point, the more mounting points you have the more that force can be distributed. so on a 4 point harness they only need to hold back 1/4 of the force. Also seat belts will stretch in an accident so its not all the force in one lump.
whole point of a restraint system (seatbelts and airbags in modern cars) is to slow your body down and prevent it from colliding with the interior. so yes it may bend a sub rail and deform steemetal but you may live - AKA the ultimate goal. even if a mount lets go, granted it doesnt let go and fly into the back of your head, it should have slowed your body down so a 30 mph accident may only feel like a 10 mph accident. still gonna smart like crazy so it cant hurt to add thick plates where you mount seatbelts to prevent them from failing. 98% of the public would never see it or notice the added supports if you do it right and paint it.
Interesting in New Zealand you can only install seatbelts if they are inspected and approved by the sphincter police (Government inspectors). I have challenged them on this and their rational is that if your seatbelts are attached to the chassis and in an accident the body bolts shear you could be cut in half as the body moves and the chassis doesn't. I did point out to them that a crash big enough to shear the body bolts was probably not survivable regardless of seatbelts or not . Made absolutely no headway and hence most vintage cars in New Zealand have no seatbelts as the paperwork and hassle involved to fit them is to much to contemplate . Karl
Lona
Well-known member
Karl,
What do they do to you if you are caught with seat belts you installed but were not inspected? You can get killed if you don't have belts. Will they kill you if you have unauthorized belts? (just kidding) However, it IS a matter of priorities. In effect, it sounds like they are saying you can't have belts in an antique car which is crazy. Time for an act of civil disobedience and install them anyway.
An alternative would be to mount the belts to the body and not the frame. While not the most secure method, this would certainly be much better than no belts at all.
Glen
What do they do to you if you are caught with seat belts you installed but were not inspected? You can get killed if you don't have belts. Will they kill you if you have unauthorized belts? (just kidding) However, it IS a matter of priorities. In effect, it sounds like they are saying you can't have belts in an antique car which is crazy. Time for an act of civil disobedience and install them anyway.
An alternative would be to mount the belts to the body and not the frame. While not the most secure method, this would certainly be much better than no belts at all.
Glen
Here you have to have a 6 monthly inspection of your vehicle to insure that it is road worthy. You would not get passed at this inspection if you didn't have the correct paperwork for your seatbelts .The fine for driving a vehicle without a current inspection sticker I think is $400. Of course you would have no insurance if you had an accident as well.
Having said that I have a passenger seat belt in my 1910 Hupmobile (my wife refused to ride in it without one ) which I just remove and reinstall for the inspection
Lona
Well-known member
Karl,
Yours is not the only government or local jurisdiction with laws or regulations not well thought out. We in the US are faced with these problems also. Luckily here in the state of Virginia any vehicle over 25 yrs old and registered as an antique does not need to have a yearly inspection as all other cars do. That said, it is still wise for us to have periodic courtesy inspections on our antiques for our own safety. Installing seat belts and removing or hiding them at inspection time as you do seems like a logical and prudent thing to do.
When younger, I had a 1930 Hupmobile sedan but did not know Hupp made cars in 1910. It was a fine car I now wish I had kept.
Glen
Yours is not the only government or local jurisdiction with laws or regulations not well thought out. We in the US are faced with these problems also. Luckily here in the state of Virginia any vehicle over 25 yrs old and registered as an antique does not need to have a yearly inspection as all other cars do. That said, it is still wise for us to have periodic courtesy inspections on our antiques for our own safety. Installing seat belts and removing or hiding them at inspection time as you do seems like a logical and prudent thing to do.
When younger, I had a 1930 Hupmobile sedan but did not know Hupp made cars in 1910. It was a fine car I now wish I had kept.
Glen
I also have a 1930 Roadster that I would like to install shoulder belts in. Is there a quick way to find your March posting?
This would be very much appreciated.
ajijicy@yahoo.com
Thank you, George
This would be very much appreciated.
ajijicy@yahoo.com
Thank you, George
Lona
Well-known member
Geo,T,
Do a search on "Put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster" and scroll through the comments. Somewhere in the middle there is a thread from me with a description and pics of the installation. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Congrats on installing retractable's in your roadster. You will be happy with them and more importantly, much safer than with laps only or none at all.
Glen
Do a search on "Put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster" and scroll through the comments. Somewhere in the middle there is a thread from me with a description and pics of the installation. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Congrats on installing retractable's in your roadster. You will be happy with them and more importantly, much safer than with laps only or none at all.
Glen
Doug in NJ
Well-known member
Every six months?!? Even for antiques? Doesn't that drive everybody crazy?
In NJ it is every 2 years, and that is just for emissions (and probably obvious lack of road-worthiness). And for antiques, nothing.
Doug
In NJ it is every 2 years, and that is just for emissions (and probably obvious lack of road-worthiness). And for antiques, nothing.
Doug
Here you have to have a 6 monthly inspection of your vehicle to insure that it is road worthy. You would not get passed at this inspection if you didn't have the correct paperwork for your seatbelts .The fine for driving a vehicle without a current inspection sticker I think is $400. Of course you would have no insurance if you had an accident as well.
Having said that I have a passenger seat belt in my 1910 Hupmobile (my wife refused to ride in it without one ) which I just remove and reinstall for the inspection
Karl
Well-known member
Yep drives us insane. In the last few months they have extended the inspection period to 12 months for cars registered in the last 10 years however have not touched the inspection period for antique cars. We lobbied hard but got no where. I have four antique cars and sometimes between inspections they have done less than 100 miles. Even the inspectors think it is stupid and most would have no idea how to drive the cars they are inspecting. -Karl
Karl
Well-known member
Yep Hupps are good cars they started in 1909 with the Model 20 Essentially unchanged until 1913. Mine is a 1910
Attachments
insomniacshotrods
Senior Member
Wow! Cool hupp Karl.
Lona
Well-known member
Mike - mshmodela,
A little more difficult to install 3 point belts on a Tudor but I think it can be done provided you have or can install a hefty cross member behind the rear seat. The lap belt parts would be fastened on the sides of the front seat as shown in several past threads on the forum. Ideally, the shoulder belt would extend over the front seat back and attach to a substantial support at or slightly below the shoulder at the top of the rear seat. Unfortunately, this can't be done with the model A body unless a roll bar has been installed to attach the belt to. As a compromise, the shoulder belt could extend rearward and down through the crack between the rear seat bottom and back and then attached to a solid member under the rear seat. While considerably more safe than mounting the shoulder belt to the floor directly behind the front seat, mounting it behind the rear seat means it will interfere with rear seat passengers. Also, on a Tudor, some provision would need to be made to beef up the front seat back locking mechanism to ensure it does not let the seat flip forward in a crash.
We have 3 point retractables in our A roadster but only laps in our '31 Chrysler sedan and we are concerned every time we drive it. That is a winter project.
Glen
A little more difficult to install 3 point belts on a Tudor but I think it can be done provided you have or can install a hefty cross member behind the rear seat. The lap belt parts would be fastened on the sides of the front seat as shown in several past threads on the forum. Ideally, the shoulder belt would extend over the front seat back and attach to a substantial support at or slightly below the shoulder at the top of the rear seat. Unfortunately, this can't be done with the model A body unless a roll bar has been installed to attach the belt to. As a compromise, the shoulder belt could extend rearward and down through the crack between the rear seat bottom and back and then attached to a solid member under the rear seat. While considerably more safe than mounting the shoulder belt to the floor directly behind the front seat, mounting it behind the rear seat means it will interfere with rear seat passengers. Also, on a Tudor, some provision would need to be made to beef up the front seat back locking mechanism to ensure it does not let the seat flip forward in a crash.
We have 3 point retractables in our A roadster but only laps in our '31 Chrysler sedan and we are concerned every time we drive it. That is a winter project.
Glen