It's my understanding the leather back victoria was made between Nov. 1930 to April of 1931 and then the steel back was made from April on into 1932. Were there more leather backs made? Sure seems today there are more around or maybe because I've been looking for a steel back for a long time. Do they weigh about the same? What is the cost to have to top of a leather back replaced assuming the wood in in good shape? What is the lifespan of a leather back top assuming it's kept inside except for driving? Looking for any other information in the differences of the two types of victoria's as I'am thinking of considering a leather back. Thanks for your information and thoughts, Bill
leather back vrs. steel backs
- Thread starter Bill Cal.
- Start date
Marshall V. Daut
Well-known member
As I recall from the Victoria Association's newsletters, the numbers were approximately equal in production, about 33,xxx each. The leatherbacks are a little more expensive to restore because of that feature, while the steel-tops only need body work and paint. That was the idea behind the change = cheaper, faster to produce and more durable. The material available now is not authentic, as the real stuff is no longer attainable. Marco did some research into this a while back and most likely the Vicky Club, too. The structural wood is the same between the two bodies, but there are differences in the back of the top area and around the rear window. I have an early Vicky that was made in November of 1930, yet it is considered a 1931 model. 'Gotta get around to restoring it some day...
Marshall
Marshall
frank mcdaniels
Senior Member
Bill, One thing to be aware of is that the leather back was more prone to rust under the leather back.Also there not easy to replace.Something to watch for when getting ready to buy.I've always thought the Vickys were one of the nicest looking A's.Frank
Vern
Well-known member
Bill, there are more wood pieces in the leatherback version as the top fabric has to attach along the belt line and across the back of the roof. There is more wood around the rear window than in the steelback. The rest of the wood pieces are pretty much the same between the two styles.
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Just about everything behind the rear side windows is different and more plentiful. This equals more money.
Bill Cilker
Senior Member
From the Vicky Club information, It looks like the change over happened about Murry Body Tag number 28,200. Mine is body tag number 28,618. It has a flat firewall
Roserock49
Junior Member
The Victoria was introduced in March of 1930 and both styles were available throughout production. All Victoria's were 1931 which introduced the new radiator shell and slant windshield. Only 1 Briggs built body has been documented by a body tag. Roughly 43,000 were produced and model A body production stopped in August of 1931.
This information is from material printed in The Victoria Bustle.
My Victoria was built in March of 1931 and has been my pride and joy since 1975.
This information is from material printed in The Victoria Bustle.
My Victoria was built in March of 1931 and has been my pride and joy since 1975.
Attachments
David Moore
Member
My original Steelback
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
I beleive that is not true as the part numbers for the specific Leather back wood was changed to AR denoting they were no longer used in active production. As the wood is different and has different part numbers there would be no reason to give it an AR designation.
Bob Bidonde
Well-known member
I just finished updating the International Victoria Association's spread sheet of surviving 190As, and here are the numbers:
> 352 surviving 190As in the record. This is not to be taken as the actual total of surviving 190As because it is a record of club member's cars. My guess is there may be as many as 400 to 450 surviving 190As worldwide including street rods;
> 219 of the 352 in the record of 190As are Leather Backs, so it is very likely that more Leather Backs than Steel Backs were made;
> All in the record were built by the Murray Corporation of Detroit, Michigan. No confirmed production 190A survivor was built by Briggs or any other manufacturer;
> The record clearly shows that the Steel Back replaced the Leather Back Early in 1931, so contrary to what has been published elsewhere, there was no choice between a Leather Back and a Steel Back.
Trivia For 190A Owners.
>The wood in a Leather Back is unique in its shape from the B Pillar to the back of the body.
>The introduction date of the 190A is generally accepted as being in November, 1930.
>Obviously, Murray must have been making 190A Leather Backs months before Ford's announcement so there was a supply of cars for show and sales across the country. The International Victoria Association's record shows 190As assembled at Ford branches in September, 1930 with Murray body numbers in the 1200s. Perhaps Murray started building production bodies as early as June, 1930. The earliest Murray body numbers in the record are in the low 100s.
>Carpet, Floor. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the rear floor and sill carpet of the 190A became a one-piece design instead of separate carpets. It also states that the ends over the sill carpets are no longer incorporated.
>Carpet, Doors & Quarter Panels. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states the set-in door pocket was removed from the RH and LH door trim, and a "patch-pocket" was put into the LH door only of the Victoria. The same letter also states the carpet along the door bottoms and along the quarter panels was discontinued in the Victoria. In the Indianapolis Service Letter of 5-26-31, a redundant message appears indicating that the LH door only has a patch-pocket.
>Frame Number. When an engine was placed into a frame on the assembly line, its number was stamped into the top of the left frame rail so the engine number and frame number should be the same. However, over the years the motor may have been changed and the numbers no longer match.
>Door Locks. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of Nov 26, 1930 informed its dealers that a new series of locks requiring only one key had been adapted on the Victoria using Key Series A-1301 to A-1550. Lock Set A-11569 included one ignition lock with the conduit plus one extra lock cylinder.
>Door Pockets. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states the set-in door pocket was removed from the RH and LH door trim, and a "patch-pocket" was put into the LH door only of the Victoria. Sketches of the door pockets are in the Model A Judging & Restoration Guidelines.
>Engine Assembly Date. The source of engine assembly dates is the daily Model A motor production records of the Ford Motor Company. The highest Model A engine production number on record is 4830806 which was assembled on November 11, 1931. There may have been some Model A engines produced after November 11, 1931, but there is no record of these.
>Firewall Type. The Ford Service Bulletin of May 1931 announced the introduction of a new cowl tank (AKA gas tank) in production. The new cowl tank was necessary to enable the relocation of the gas shutoff valve to the engine side of the firewall. As a result of this change, the firewall was indented to bring its surface close to the back wall of the cowl tank, so the new shutoff valve could be attached directly to the back of the tank. When a cowl tank for an older vehicle was ordered by a dealer, the new tank was supplied and retrofitted into the older vehicle. Thus some Victorias built before May, 1931 may have an indented firewall.
Flat firewalls removed by dealers were sent back to the Ford branches where they were re-stamped into the "indented" configuration. Re-stamped firewalls have the stiffening ribs of the flat firewall squashed flat in the area of the indentation giving the re-stamped firewalls a unique appearance.
>Front Seat Adjustment. The October 30, 1930 Service Letter from the Kearny Branch (New Jersey) to its dealers introducing the Victoria mentions that both front seats are adjustable. Therefore the hinge rod brackets for both front seats would have 3 holes in each. However, a considerable number of Victorias have a non-adjustable front passenger seat where the rod brackets have only one hole. At some time in mid 1931, the driver's seat adjustment changed from to a sliding mechanism employing a ratchet to lock the seat into position. A specific date for the changeover to the sliding mechanism is unknown.
>Pin Stripe. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the pin stripe on the cowl tank finish panel is no longer incorporated on the 190A.
>Probable Car Assembly Date. The Model A Ford Judging Standards & Restoration Guidelines allows 90 days leeway. Therefore the probable car assembly date at the Ford branch is estimated to be within the period of 90 days from the engine assembly date.
>Seat Frames. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the exposed metal on the front seats that was Maroon is changed to black.
>Shades. Not all Victorias had quarter window shades. The Chicago Branch Service Letter of 4-3-31 and the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to their dealers states that the quarter window shades were no longer being supplied in Victorias and Town Sedans as standard equipment. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 also states that the tassel on the rear window curtain was replaced with a tab.
>Sun Visors. The Chicago Branch Service Letter of February 27, 1931 and the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to their dealers indicate that the RH sun visor (passenger's side) was discontinued as standard equipment in the Victoria. The Chicago Branch Service Letter states that it would be available for installation by dealers as Part Number A-192405-A Brown, and A-192405-B for Bedford Cord. However the Chicago Branch Service Letter of 4-10-31 to its dealers states that the right sun visor was reinstated.
Contrary to the Chicago Branch letter, the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of 4-3-31 does not indicate that the RH visor was reinstated. Instead the Indianapolis Branch informed its dealers that the visors would be made available to them as A-192405-C in Brown Mohair, A192405-D in Bedford Cord , for the RH side and classed as special equipment for the LH side. A-19246-C in Brown Mohair and A-192406-D were standard equipment for the LH side.
Then on 4-27-31, the Indianapolis Branch informed its dealers via service letter that the RH visor was reinstated in production in the 160D Town Sedan, the 160C Deluxe Fordor and the 190A Victoria.
>Upholstery, Tan Broad Cloth. The Ford Motor Company's sales brochure depicting a Steel Back Victoria states that the Victoria was available in a choice of Mohair, Bedford Cord and Broad Cloth, but the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of 5-26-31 announces that Tan Broad Cloth has replaced Bedford Cord in production.
> 352 surviving 190As in the record. This is not to be taken as the actual total of surviving 190As because it is a record of club member's cars. My guess is there may be as many as 400 to 450 surviving 190As worldwide including street rods;
> 219 of the 352 in the record of 190As are Leather Backs, so it is very likely that more Leather Backs than Steel Backs were made;
> All in the record were built by the Murray Corporation of Detroit, Michigan. No confirmed production 190A survivor was built by Briggs or any other manufacturer;
> The record clearly shows that the Steel Back replaced the Leather Back Early in 1931, so contrary to what has been published elsewhere, there was no choice between a Leather Back and a Steel Back.
Trivia For 190A Owners.
>The wood in a Leather Back is unique in its shape from the B Pillar to the back of the body.
>The introduction date of the 190A is generally accepted as being in November, 1930.
>Obviously, Murray must have been making 190A Leather Backs months before Ford's announcement so there was a supply of cars for show and sales across the country. The International Victoria Association's record shows 190As assembled at Ford branches in September, 1930 with Murray body numbers in the 1200s. Perhaps Murray started building production bodies as early as June, 1930. The earliest Murray body numbers in the record are in the low 100s.
>Carpet, Floor. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the rear floor and sill carpet of the 190A became a one-piece design instead of separate carpets. It also states that the ends over the sill carpets are no longer incorporated.
>Carpet, Doors & Quarter Panels. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states the set-in door pocket was removed from the RH and LH door trim, and a "patch-pocket" was put into the LH door only of the Victoria. The same letter also states the carpet along the door bottoms and along the quarter panels was discontinued in the Victoria. In the Indianapolis Service Letter of 5-26-31, a redundant message appears indicating that the LH door only has a patch-pocket.
>Frame Number. When an engine was placed into a frame on the assembly line, its number was stamped into the top of the left frame rail so the engine number and frame number should be the same. However, over the years the motor may have been changed and the numbers no longer match.
>Door Locks. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of Nov 26, 1930 informed its dealers that a new series of locks requiring only one key had been adapted on the Victoria using Key Series A-1301 to A-1550. Lock Set A-11569 included one ignition lock with the conduit plus one extra lock cylinder.
>Door Pockets. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states the set-in door pocket was removed from the RH and LH door trim, and a "patch-pocket" was put into the LH door only of the Victoria. Sketches of the door pockets are in the Model A Judging & Restoration Guidelines.
>Engine Assembly Date. The source of engine assembly dates is the daily Model A motor production records of the Ford Motor Company. The highest Model A engine production number on record is 4830806 which was assembled on November 11, 1931. There may have been some Model A engines produced after November 11, 1931, but there is no record of these.
>Firewall Type. The Ford Service Bulletin of May 1931 announced the introduction of a new cowl tank (AKA gas tank) in production. The new cowl tank was necessary to enable the relocation of the gas shutoff valve to the engine side of the firewall. As a result of this change, the firewall was indented to bring its surface close to the back wall of the cowl tank, so the new shutoff valve could be attached directly to the back of the tank. When a cowl tank for an older vehicle was ordered by a dealer, the new tank was supplied and retrofitted into the older vehicle. Thus some Victorias built before May, 1931 may have an indented firewall.
Flat firewalls removed by dealers were sent back to the Ford branches where they were re-stamped into the "indented" configuration. Re-stamped firewalls have the stiffening ribs of the flat firewall squashed flat in the area of the indentation giving the re-stamped firewalls a unique appearance.
>Front Seat Adjustment. The October 30, 1930 Service Letter from the Kearny Branch (New Jersey) to its dealers introducing the Victoria mentions that both front seats are adjustable. Therefore the hinge rod brackets for both front seats would have 3 holes in each. However, a considerable number of Victorias have a non-adjustable front passenger seat where the rod brackets have only one hole. At some time in mid 1931, the driver's seat adjustment changed from to a sliding mechanism employing a ratchet to lock the seat into position. A specific date for the changeover to the sliding mechanism is unknown.
>Pin Stripe. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the pin stripe on the cowl tank finish panel is no longer incorporated on the 190A.
>Probable Car Assembly Date. The Model A Ford Judging Standards & Restoration Guidelines allows 90 days leeway. Therefore the probable car assembly date at the Ford branch is estimated to be within the period of 90 days from the engine assembly date.
>Seat Frames. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to its dealers states that the exposed metal on the front seats that was Maroon is changed to black.
>Shades. Not all Victorias had quarter window shades. The Chicago Branch Service Letter of 4-3-31 and the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to their dealers states that the quarter window shades were no longer being supplied in Victorias and Town Sedans as standard equipment. The Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 also states that the tassel on the rear window curtain was replaced with a tab.
>Sun Visors. The Chicago Branch Service Letter of February 27, 1931 and the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of March 13, 1931 to their dealers indicate that the RH sun visor (passenger's side) was discontinued as standard equipment in the Victoria. The Chicago Branch Service Letter states that it would be available for installation by dealers as Part Number A-192405-A Brown, and A-192405-B for Bedford Cord. However the Chicago Branch Service Letter of 4-10-31 to its dealers states that the right sun visor was reinstated.
Contrary to the Chicago Branch letter, the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of 4-3-31 does not indicate that the RH visor was reinstated. Instead the Indianapolis Branch informed its dealers that the visors would be made available to them as A-192405-C in Brown Mohair, A192405-D in Bedford Cord , for the RH side and classed as special equipment for the LH side. A-19246-C in Brown Mohair and A-192406-D were standard equipment for the LH side.
Then on 4-27-31, the Indianapolis Branch informed its dealers via service letter that the RH visor was reinstated in production in the 160D Town Sedan, the 160C Deluxe Fordor and the 190A Victoria.
>Upholstery, Tan Broad Cloth. The Ford Motor Company's sales brochure depicting a Steel Back Victoria states that the Victoria was available in a choice of Mohair, Bedford Cord and Broad Cloth, but the Indianapolis Branch Service Letter of 5-26-31 announces that Tan Broad Cloth has replaced Bedford Cord in production.
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Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Thanks Bob!
Bob Bidonde
Well-known member
All of the stuff in my post and then some will windup on the website of the International Victoria Association in the near future.
Bob Bidonde
Well-known member
David Moore, please email me at modela1931@aol.com.
Bob Bidonde
Well-known member
Once the vinyl roof covering of the Leather-Back deteriorated, water leakage became a problem that wreaked havoc with the underlying steel and the wood inside of the car.
Bick in New Zealand
Well-known member
It must have been a problem early on, for Ford to have an extensive article in the Service Bulletins on putting on a new top, and maybe was part of Ford's thinking in producing the steelback.
Tom Endy
Well-known member
The attached photos are of proto-types of both the steelback and the leatherback taken in 1930. These photos were made available to the Victoria Association by the MAFFI organization in 2004 with permission to reproduce them.
It would appear that in 1930 Henry planned to produce both versions.
The proto-types of both cars are different than what actually went into production.
Tom Endy
It would appear that in 1930 Henry planned to produce both versions.
The proto-types of both cars are different than what actually went into production.
Tom Endy
Attachments
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
This is an interesting statistic....
As I recall there are about 400 Slant Window Cabriolets on the list of known cars. Why this is interesting is because they only made 6000 or so of the cars while they 6 or 7 times more Vickies.
I would expect to find 1800 vickies on the list.
Of course this number is dependent on the person keeping the records and the people with the cars. Tom Moniz tries to be proactive in getting owners to share information about their cars. At that many want nothing to do with sharing the information.
I try to encourage people to respond to the special interest groups. For the sake of just knowing more about the cars. Subtle details can be pinpointed which help those who are interested in getting their cars 'correct'. There are those change over points for some features that would be nice to lock down. Usually the data only lets you get down to a few hundred units for a change over point. You are always seeking that absolute point where car number X has one style and car X+1 has the change.
So if you have a car and there is a registry, please do not be afraid to give up basic info on your car.