Need help getting a Model A running right

[Berliner]

A friend of mine has a Model A which he's asking me to work on for him. It's a recent restore/refurbish and starts OK, but I have some questions.

1. The throttle lever seems to have only two settings. "all the way down" = full throttle and "anywhere else" = engine slows down considerably. Is this normal ?

2. The engine only runs halfway decent with the spark lever all the way up. I did set the timing using these instructions and corrected the gap from 0.30" to 0.20", but it now starts even harder and seems to run worse. What did I do wrong ?

3. The carburetor leaks quite a bit. The choke rod also does not stay in position when pulled out, nor can I rotate it. Is that normal ?

Thank you very much for your help !
Berliner

 

[MCHinson]

The carburetor should not be leaking. There may be other issues as well, but I would suggest getting the carburetor issues resolved first. Do you have any Model A manuals or Model A experieince? Where are you located? Perhaps someone close by can help you out.

 

[Berliner]

Hello MC, thanks.

No, this is my first Model A, otherwise have only had experience with repair/restoration of newer vehicles. There are some people locally who may be able to help he, but I wanted to try first and see what I could do.

I did find a carburetor rebuild kit in the vehicle, will have to do that first then.

If anyone else has ideas, I would appreciate it. MC, thanks again.

Berliner

 

[J Franklin]

I would not use the rebuild kit until you have opened the carb and checked the float and needle. If you need to use it after a thorough cleaning and testing, make sure the jets are the same as you took out if they are original to the unit. Make sure you remove the old gasket before replacing new. Sometime they tend to double up throwing things off. Check the last persons work if it has been previously rebuilt! Some repro kits have some marginal parts. a good reference would be helpful also.

 

[MCHinson]

If you don't have a manual, this might be a good place to do some reading about the carburetor:

http://www.model-a.org/default.html

 

[Michael in Sedona]

Berliner,

The spark lever should be all the way down for normal running, or maybe slightly up from the bottom. All the way up is fully retarded, and that is where it should be placed to start the car. After it's running, then drop the lever down.

Is the carb leaking when parked? Do you have the fuel shut-off valve turned off? A lot of Model A carbs will drip if the valve is left on. I always turn mine off with the car still running, and let the carb run completely dry. That way, I don't get any dripping gas in my garage.

The point gap you mentioned is right, from 0.18" to 0.22", but do you have the rotor at the right spot? The trailing edge of the rotor should be just be at the number one pin in the distributor body. This is with #1 piston at TDC and the timing lever fully advanced, or fully down.

That's about the limit of my meager mechanical abilities. Others will no doubt be able to help you more. I know just enough to keep mine going most of the time!

 

[Mitch//pa]

you stated after you timed it that it now starts harder and runs worse than before. double ck your timing make sure the spark lever is all the way up when setting. also make sure #1 piston is at tdc by going through the plug hole instead of using the dimple. possibly the needle and seat or carb float has a problem for the dripping. i use the viton rubber needles with good success. the choke rod should turn the gav usually 1/2 turn open is close.

 

[Berliner]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies.

I would not use the rebuild kit until you have opened the carb and checked the float and needle. If you need to use it after a thorough cleaning and testing, make sure the jets are the same as you took out if they are original to the unit. Make sure you remove the old gasket before replacing new. Sometime they tend to double up throwing things off. Check the last persons work if it has been previously rebuilt! Some repro kits have some marginal parts. a good reference would be helpful also.

OK, I'll do my best to only replace what is necessary with parts from the kit. Thank you.

If you don't have a manual, this might be a good place to do some reading about the carburetor:

http://www.model-a.org/default.html

Thank you.

The spark lever should be all the way down for normal running, or maybe slightly up from the bottom. All the way up is fully retarded, and that is where it should be placed to start the car. After it's running, then drop the lever down.

The engine only runs well when the spark lever is up, also warm. Even a move of say half way down will cause the engine to start sputtering and stall.

Is the carb leaking when parked? Do you have the fuel shut-off valve turned off? A lot of Model A carbs will drip if the valve is left on. I always turn mine off with the car still running, and let the carb run completely dry. That way, I don't get any dripping gas in my garage.

The carburetor is wet on the outside when the vehicle is running. It also leaks if the shut-off valve is left on, but it sounds like that's normal.

The point gap you mentioned is right, from 0.18" to 0.22", but do you have the rotor at the right spot? The trailing edge of the rotor should be just be at the number one pin in the distributor body. This is with #1 piston at TDC and the timing lever fully advanced, or fully down.

The engine was placed at TDC using the pin/timing gear. The lobe in the distributor was then adjusted per these instructions. Any slight turn of the distributor shaft clockwise at TDC (with the spark lever all the way up) caused the points to spark.

That's about the limit of my meager mechanical abilities. Others will no doubt be able to help you more. I know just enough to keep mine going most of the time!

Thank you.

you stated after you timed it that it now starts harder and runs worse than before. double ck your timing make sure the spark lever is all the way up when setting. also make sure #1 piston is at tdc by going through the plug hole instead of using the dimple.

The spark lever was up and the full travel corresponds with both extremes of the opening on the distributor cap.

possibly the needle and seat or carb float has a problem for the dripping. i use the viton rubber needles with good success. the choke rod should turn the gav usually 1/2 turn open is close.

Thank you for the tip on the choke rod. Mine doesn't turn, so there seems to be an issue.

I'll work on the carburetor next and check in with you guys. Something is also fishy about the timing. I'll have to verify TDC through the spark plug hole as recommended.

Thank you all again very much.
Berliner

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

"The carburetor is wet on the outside when the vehicle is running. It also leaks if the shut-off valve is left on, but it sounds like that's normal."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in Sedona
The point gap you mentioned is right, from 0.18" to 0.22", but do you have the rotor at the right spot? The trailing edge of the rotor should be just be at the number one pin in the distributor body. This is with #1 piston at TDC and the timing lever fully advanced, or fully down.

"The engine was placed at TDC using the pin/timing gear. The lobe in the distributor was then adjusted per these instructions. Any slight turn of the distributor shaft clockwise at TDC (with the spark lever all the way up) caused the points to spark."

Gas leaking at the carb with the shutoff valve left on may be common, but it isn't normal. The carb must have a leaking needle and seat, or the float has a hole, or is set too high. Or, one of the jets may be leaking.

The points should just be ready to open when you turn the rotor COUNTER CLOCKWISE, not clockwise. That is when the #1 piston is at TDC and the spark lever is all the way UP.

The choke rod should NOT stay out when you let go of it. It is spring loaded to stay open when you let go of the knob.

The knob being hard to turn is common with repro parts. It may be bad threads on the carb adjustment needle or a rubber grommet that's too tight, or the choke rod out of alignment. The choke rod should be a straight line with the firewall hole and with the carb adjustment needle.

 

[Berliner]

Hello Tom,

Gas leaking at the carb with the shutoff valve left on may be common, but it isn't normal. The carb must have a leaking needle and seat, or the float has a hole, or is set too high. Or, one of the jets may be leaking.

I'll look into that, thanks.

The points should just be ready to open when you turn the rotor COUNTER CLOCKWISE, not clockwise. That is when the #1 piston is at TDC and the spark lever is all the way UP.

OK, I'll have to review the instructions again, looks like something went wrong.

The choke rod should NOT stay out when you let go of it. It is spring loaded to stay open when you let go of the knob.

OK, good to know.

The knob being hard to turn is common with repro parts. It may be bad threads on the carb adjustment needle or a rubber grommet that's too tight, or the choke rod out of alignment. The choke rod should be a straight line with the firewall hole and with the carb adjustment needle.

The rod seems straight, the grommet not tight. Will let you know what I find when the carburetor is off.

Thank you very much.
Berliner

 

[Berliner]

OK, removed and disassembled the carburetor today, picture attached.

Does it look complete to you all ? It has been rebuilt once.

Another question. What brand/supplier would you recommend for a manifold gasket ? The one on there is paper and already blown out.

Thanks,
Berliner

 

[James Rogers]

OK, removed and disassembled the carburetor today, picture attached.

Does it look complete to you all ? It has been rebuilt once.

Another question. What brand/supplier would you recommend for a manifold gasket ? The one on there is paper and already blown out.

Thanks,
Berliner

Looks like it is all there but I would question why there are 2 mounting gaskets? There should be only 1. It also looks like the carb might have been rebuilt but it was considerably a while ago which would not mean much if the tank has fines that can get into the carb and stop it up.

You can get a copper manifold gasket from any of the major suppliers but, it won't help much if the manifolds are warped. I use the paper gaskets on my car and my run-in stand and have little trouble with them lasting even on the stand where they are re-used several times on many motors. I make sure the manifolds are planed and the surfaces are flat and have no warps at any individual holes.

Hope this helps some.

 

[lindy williams]

Berliner, there's an error in your timing method. Once the engine is set to #1 firing position with the timing pin and the point gap is set at .018-.022 in., set the distributor cam so that any movement in the counterclockwise direction causes the points to open, not clockwise direction.

 

[Berliner]

Looks like it is all there but I would question why there are 2 mounting gaskets? There should be only 1.

Thank you, was wondering about that.

It also looks like the carb might have been rebuilt but it was considerably a while ago which would not mean much if the tank has fines that can get into the carb and stop it up.

The reason I was asked to help originally was to derust the tank, here's the product I used. That would explain the rust dust that was found yesterday in the float bowl and maybe many of the problems.

You can get a copper manifold gasket from any of the major suppliers but, it won't help much if the manifolds are warped. I use the paper gaskets on my car and my run-in stand and have little trouble with them lasting even on the stand where they are re-used several times on many motors. I make sure the manifolds are planed and the surfaces are flat and have no warps at any individual holes.

OK, thank you for the tip, will take a look.
By the way, do I need to buy these rings when the gasket is purchased ?

Hope this helps some.

You bet it did. Thank you.

Berliner, there's an error in your timing method. Once the engine is set to #1 firing position with the timing pin and the point gap is set at .018-.022 in., set the distributor cam so that any movement in the counterclockwise direction causes the points to open, not clockwise direction.

Hello lindy. Tom Wesenberg also mentioned this, thanks to you both.
The timing was in fact set incorrectly, but corrected yesterday, and the vehicle ran much better.

Thanks again for all the help.
Berliner

 

[Mike V. Florida]

OK, thank you for the tip, will take a look.
By the way, do I need to buy these rings when the gasket is purchased ?

Some like them some don't Ford used the for all years with only a short time with out them. Chenk bolck to be sure the ports have the recess for them if you decide to use them.

 

[dmaxweb]

[[/QUOTE]
The rod seems straight, the grommet not tight. Will let you know what I find when the carburetor is off.

Thank you very much.
Berliner

Check the GAV rod where it goes through the firewall. After years of use it may have a flat spot from rubbing against edge of the hole in the firewall. This could make it difficult to turn and hang up when released. I replaced the rod on my car and put a step washer on the rod on the engine compartment side of the firewall before the leather washer. The small diameter end of the step washer fits in the hole and keeps the rod centered.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Berliner]

First of all thanks to everyone for the help.

The manifold was removed today and inspected, pictures attached.

The gasket was misaligned which could be a reason for it not sealing. In addition it seemed somewhat soggy.

Some like them some don't Ford used the for all years with only a short time with out them. Chenk bolck to be sure the ports have the recess for them if you decide to use them.

Mike V., both the head and the manifold have recesses, so I think I'll purchase the gland rings. Maybe they would have prevented this problem in the first place.

Check the GAV rod where it goes through the firewall. After years of use it may have a flat spot from rubbing against edge of the hole in the firewall. This could make it difficult to turn and hang up when released.

Thank you dmaxweb for the tip. This choke rod seems to be a reproduction part with no wear.


A few questions:

1. Should I buy this new needle/seat for the leaky carburetor ? The current needle/seat is from a rebuild kit and seems to seal OK when blowing through it.

2. What sealer should be used between the manifold and the exhaust pipe ? This vehicle had a red waxy substance at the joint and no gasket.

3. Does coolant normally seep out between the head and the block, or does the head gasket need replacing ?

Thanks !
Berliner

 

[BillLee/Chandler TX]

...The engine was placed at TDC using the pin/timing gear. The lobe in the distributor was then adjusted per these instructions. Any slight turn of the distributor shaft clockwise at TDC (with the spark lever all the way up) caused the points to spark.

The instructions you mentioned say this:

"The SLIGHTEST movement of the screwdriver and cam in the opposite (counter clockwise) direction should clearly spark the points."

(Red is for emphasis.)

From what I've seen of the symptoms, I suspect the timing is not correct.