More info on Spindle Bolts/King Pins...

Steve Plucker

Steve Plucker

BANNED
Today I cleaned up all of my Spindle Bolts/King Pins and as we know there are two types...type one accepts style 1 (Beginning to April 1929) and style 2 (April through August 1929) Spindle Locking Pins. Type two accepts style 3 (After August 1929 through production) Spindle Locking Pin. (See Area Four of the MARC/MAFCA Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards)

Within type one Spindle Bolt/King Pin, there were 5 pairs in which each pair had different features than the others.

Such as no markings or letters on cups or shaft plus other different features.

Within type two Spindle Bolt/King Pin, there were 16 pairs in which each pair had different features than the others.

Such as FORD Script with "A" above and "K" below; different fonts for the "A" and "K"; "USA" on all pairs with the FORD script, "A" and "K"; No FORD Script; some had large "L" and "R" on the very back side of cups within a flat area, some had small "l" and "r" on the very back side of cups within a flat area; one pair had a large L and R off to the side; some had nothing at all; one pair had "USA" on right pin and ASU on the left pin; one pin had a "LH" in the grease grove (did not have a mate to that one).

Needless to say, one heck of a lot of variations in the Spindle Bolts/King Pins.

No wonder no one has taken this part to task to figure out what is original to the Model A and what is not.

Very interesting to say the least.

So, the question is...Will the true Model A/AA FORD Spindle Bolts/King Pins please stand up! Besides those marked with the FORD script as known original FORD parts, one could probably get away with almost any of these and be correct.

I am done with that one!

Pluck
 
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Pluck, I don't have anything to add, but just want you to know that I am reading all your posts about king pins and learning allot. Thanks for the info and all the research you do.
 
I have an NOS set of A kingpins and also an NOS set of the larger AA kingpins. I'll have to find them to see how they compare.
 
Just to muddy up the water some, just because we have a NOS set of spindle bolts does not mean they are necessarily correct for Fine Point vehicle build. Another way to say this is a Ford-script set of pins that the dealer sold in 1929 does not mean they were the same as what was on the vehicle when they were installed on the assembly line. I found this out after speaking with a Judge after the San Diego meet (I think) when a set of script bolts were marked as incorrect. Maybe it would be worth checking to see how many prints (revisions) are at the archives to see if it shows any differences??
 
Pluck,
I suspect most of your kingpins you have are repros - early and late. I also suspect almost all kingpins were replaced some time from the cars manufacture and now. I guess I thought all Ford made kingpins had a Ford script on the shaft near the retaining slot. I doubt Ford ever marked the kingpins with L and R. I have several of them that I am pretty sure are not Ford parts. I also have some with various flat spot on the top and back of the heads which I doubt are Ford parts. The weird thing is, when installed you usually can't tell one style from another as the shaft is hidden and it is quite hard to see most of the head. As long as the kingpins are machined properly, even though I like to use original parts, most would look and fit just fine.
Rusty Nelson
 
I bought this set of kingpins at last Hershey,Thompson brand, the top of the kingpin has a blurry ford script in the forging, one also has a "L", and most of the stamped "FORD" script is ground off next to the retaining groove --the exact same size grind mark on both like it was done on an automatic machine--so do you think Thompson bought the kingpin from FORD, or did they make them for Ford and grind off the Ford for their own name sets
 

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This is a comment Mr. Wayne McMichael mcmimmcs@mnsi.net wrote to me:

"do you really think anyone other than you cares about king pins enough to devote two threads or when an assembly line opened up. It seems you like to see your name on the fordbarn no matter how stupid the subject. Give it up !".

Poor fellow...He must be afarid to come out in the open to bash me on the forum...Ahhh another "afarid to post barner"...Poor guy.


As a matter of fact Wayner...there are a lot of guys interested in this than you know.

Sorry Wayne...Ole Pluck aint giving anything up!

Pluck
 
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Kurt in NJ said:
I bought this set of kingpins at last Hershey,Thompson brand, the top of the kingpin has a blurry ford script in the forging, one also has a "L", and most of the stamped "FORD" script is ground off next to the retaining groove --the exact same size grind mark on both like it was done on an automatic machine--so do you think Thompson bought the kingpin from FORD, or did they make them for Ford and grind off the Ford for their own name sets
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In the mid 70's I picked up a similar set in the Thompson box but they were for Model B (B, Ford, K). The Ford script was not ground off.
 
Steve Plucker said:
This is a comment Mr. Wayne McMichael mcmimmcs@mnsi.net wrote to me:

"do you really think anyone other than you cares about king pins enough to devote two threads or when an assembly line opened up. It seems you like to see your name on the fordbarn no matter how stupid the subject. Give it up !".........................
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Wayne, not everybody is interested in the same thing and thus this forum provides an opportunity for enthusiasts of the hobby to share their interest with others that have the same interest. If something is posted that I am not interested in then I move on. Hope you continue in the forum and respect others interest that may not be the same as yours.
 
Pluck that is a prime example of what I was talking about in your thread of why some are afraid to post. Also it is why I no longer accept e-mails from Fordbarn, just PM's, so this sort of stuff can be sent to Ryan and he can deal with the Fordbarn users that think nasty messages and such are the best way to express their opinions. Rod
 
Brent and/or Marco....

Steve and I had a quick phone call about this.....and Brent opened the door.

*How do you judge the King Pins,...with not much info in the JS? Unless I've
missed something, if it has a "correct looking" King Pin,....it passes.*

When I say "correct looking", it doesn't have "USA" on the top of it.
 
There are several things to realize when attempting to assess those items removed from cars as well as NOS versions.

It would be VERY difficult to look at the exterior and identify original spindle bolts due to the MANY minor variations that will appear due to the method of manufacture, outside suppliers, etc. Additionally there were two methods of manufacturing the spindle bolts by the end of 1928. I don't have specifics but it appears some where made from two parts. In any case, for the early type using the round locking pin they had (right side) A-3115-B1, and A-3115-B2. For the later type they had A-3115-C1, and A-3115-C2. The point of this is that you cannot put forth ANY given example and suggest other originals would or should match.

By contrast there will be instances where spindle bolts can certainly be identified as IMPROPER based on exterior markings. Although none have yet been documented, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a small Ford script on the head of the spindle bolts until March 1928 when Ford eliminated the script on the vast majority of items "for ease in exporting". I don't believe the spindle bolts had any markings until late '31 when Ford began reinstating the use of the Ford script to combat the competition in the replacement parts market. I would however expect to see a very small, subtle manufacturer's on the head of some spindle bolts as we find on other forged parts. For the record, my Fordor spindle bolts have no markings on the shaft. I see no markings on the head but would have to blast them to know for sure and I'm not going to do that anytime soon!

As previously mentioned, many if not most of the cars that remained in service into the 1950's would have had the spindle bolts replaced. Keep in mind that Ford spindle bolts sets were readily available into the 1950's. I don't think I've ever seen an NOS set in a box from anytime in the 1930's. I'm pretty confident the various NOS spindle bolts I have were post WW2.

From a judging standpoint I would have to except almost any spindle bolt head that fits properly and is free of any script or "USA", etc. Now to be fair, I've never used or looked at modern repros so I can't say if they have problems that set them apart from others.
 
1930 coupe said:
Steve I looked through my box of king pins and found some original parts that you can add to your library. The bushings are Ford script.
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That would be great 1930 coupe...I will send you a PM with my address so you can send them to me so I can add them to my library!:D Just kidding:D.

Very interesting...so was this box set of what one could have been bought during the Model A/AA era?

Thanks for the photos...now they will go in my library and others to!:D

Pluck
 
I have a set that I have saved for about 25 years intending to use them for
a fine point car. Hope these would be OK for a July 1931 Deluxe Tudor. Would appreciate any feedback on these.

Thanks,

Ray
 

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Ray,
The NOS kingpins you pictured should work just find for a fine point car since your car is a 1931. For 28's and the first half of 29, the retaining pins are different than the headless ones in the NOS kit shown.
Rusty Nelson
 
Were the kinpins masked and painted, then assembled, or was the front end assembled then painted, so the bearing side would also be black?
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
Were the kinpins masked and painted, then assembled, or was the front end assembled then painted, so the bearing side would also be black?
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Tom,

I believe all the parts were painted first, then assembled.

In the August 16, 1928 issue of The American Machinist it indicates in the assembly progression that once the front end and rear end were assembled (with the frame upside down) that the assembly was sprayed with black proxylin all over then it was turned over and sprayed again.

I do not know if this was the norm in all assembly plants or not but viewing the article, and other photos of the assembly line...something seams to be out of wack here.

I have seen many black painted original bearings in this area but on the other hand some with no paint.

Pluck
 
Arcieri said:
I have a set that I have saved for about 25 years intending to use them for
a fine point car. Hope these would be OK for a July 1931 Deluxe Tudor. Would appreciate any feedback on these.

Thanks,

Ray
Click to expand...

I believe that is the last style box used placing it in the late 40's - early 50's. I've never heard of king pins in a FoMoCo box.

The pins in those boxes varied from plain on the head to embossed numbers and even a large embossed "USA". If yours are plain then you are good to go. If not I suggest MAKING them plain (with appropriate texture). In reality there is less than 1 in 100 that anyone will even look at it in judging as not many judges have even digested their specific area of the Standards in detail. With that said, take things to the level that's important to you regardless of judging.
 
Attached is a photo of an AA king pin set in the original brown burlap bag with the Ford script. The set was obtained from the parts loft of Palma Ford dealership on Staten Island about 50 years ago.

The king pins have raised letters "L" and "R" on the top. They have an old greasy preservative still on them!

Historical side note - Joseph Palma was a secret service agent 1915 - 1921 in Detroit. He became friendly with Henry Ford and wrote some of his speeches. Ford granted him a dealership on Staten Island about 1922 and gave him a 1922 Lincoln 7 passenger divided window sedan as a gift. I now have that car in my collection. Palma served 3 terms as Staten Island Borough President and was first elected in 1933 on the Fusion Party ticket with Fiorello LaGuardia. He passed away in 1969. I regret that I never sought him out to talk cars when he was still alive.
 

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